Jon Mayo: 0:08
Well, howdy-dotty everyone, welcome to another episode of Be Relentless. Today I had the privilege of sitting down with Joe Bogdan, who is an incredibly interesting and impactful human being, and, frankly, I’m at a loss of words on how to put into good context the value that we explored and created in this conversation Because, minute for minute, it was one of the more powerful, if not the most powerful, conversations I’ve had on the podcast and I enjoyed it immensely. From stoicism to self-awareness and discipline, to the concept of pursuing second-mountain pursuits and better has no finish line and gaining understanding on how he learned and developed that his purpose is to teach to what can we do now, tomorrow and for years to come? Our conversations span so many topics, so effectively and deeply, that to go on much longer would just dilute this introduction and rob from that which we did. So hopefully that provides you a synopsis and understanding of some of the cool things that we engage in. It was lively and dynamic. It was an immense pleasure and privilege and I cannot wait for us to jump in. But first two quick updates that you do want to hear. One if you’ve not tried CC Stamina, we have the Send it Guarantee, so you don’t like it, you get your money back. If you don’t want to commit to a whole bottle yet and you don’t want to just send it. We have sample packs for free now, so you’re able to go on to uauniversecom and get a free sample as well. Any purchase you do, please use, be Relentless. I check out to save 10% and support this show. Additionally, there are some pretty cool things coming out. We have two new blog article series written by two gentlemen who have joined our team. Both of them are available now. One is called the Philosophy of Flow and the other is Transformative Thought. So please check those out. And finally, stay tuned because in the coming weeks I will be introducing Ironfront solutions. All right, that’s a good amount of stuff. Let’s dive on in.

Joe Bogdan: 2:39
Yeah, man, yeah, I’m excited. Yeah, I feel like I said, it felt like it was a long time ago since we talked and, yeah, I slept since then, so I don’t remember all the things that we talked about back then, but I know that the way that you do your podcast, man, we’re just having a conversation, so I’m excited about it, man. Wherever the direction of the conversation goes, man, I’m happy to go there with you.

Jon Mayo: 3:02
Well to that, and this morning I was actually reflecting. So we have a group that I started almost a year ago now and it’s called the Forge and it’s a it’s a small group of men, no larger than nine, and what we do is it’s a whole human project. So what we’re working to do is pursue the highest ideal self that we can define for ourselves individually. So it’s not like here’s a template, here’s what you have to be, but it’s define what your why and your purpose for your life is. Make that a living document, work on it daily or as like, very frequently, and then let’s commit to ourselves communally to strive towards that everyday. And how we vote for, like how we contribute to the Forge right to keep it hot, if you will, is you have to do a physical, you have to do some level of physical training, because that represents an act of personal sovereignty over your own life and doing that right. We’re physical creatures. We want to pursue the path of least resistance. So if we do some form of physical training, we’re at least force functioning, an act of intentional will over where, whatever the momentum of the day may be, and you share that as contribution with the group and that’s the bare minimum, but it goes so far beyond that because really the target is being a better man, husband, father, community leader, business leader, challenge pursuer, whatever the case is right, and we call those people waymakers. And the reason that this was on my mind is because last night we had our get together with Forge one and one of those gentlemen is helping me build the construct out. So now there’s two forges and we’re working on creating an ecosystem that allows for hundreds of forges, and the reason I share that is this morning I was reflecting on our time last night and then I was thinking about a conversation I had with Nikki Vasquez about 10, 15 episodes ago and she introduced this idea to me. That has stuck with me since and it’s like in life for all, just on this journey, working to find our way home, and one of the beautiful things about the forges we’ve just decided to commute like, to commune and walk through life together as we work to find our way home, being creating peace, a life that we want to live, creating value and not being bloody, miserable, right and that idea seemed to me a fun launching pad for conversation for us, given what I do understand of your background and some of the proceeds you’ve done between the Lima network and the Lama Leadership Lounge and how sometimes things are for a season, sometimes things are for a long time. And then I know that you’re in some life transitions and stuff too. So I figured that hey, instead of just leaving us adrift, I could see what you think about all that and could go from there.

Joe Bogdan: 5:59
Yeah, no, you know, I like that, that concept, especially when you talked about with the physical portion and having, you know, sovereignty over yourself. There’s a lot of stuff that we don’t have. We may have a misconceived idea of how much control we have for a lot of things, but one of them is how much physical activity we can you know exert and and how that affects the rest of us, so I think, the rest of our lives. So I think that’s a that’s awesome, and I love this idea of the forge and even the concept of going. You know that we’re all going home. When you said that, I started thinking about it and I was like man, it’s interesting how life just is so cyclical. Like you, you know, you start off probably pretty comfortable in your house, depending on how you grew up, and then you definitely have this yearning to leave and go, do something and maybe conquer the world in your own perspectives. And then at some point I was telling on my teammates because I’ve been having to go on a lot of business trips and they’re like, yeah, you’re going to all these places. I was like man, I hate these. Man, I’ll be honest with you, I love being home. I mean for multiple reasons. I, you know, I love my wife, I love waking up next to her, I love my own bed, and, and my fitness routine gets jacked up every time I want to road, you know. So it’s just like man. I just remember wanting to go do all these things when I’m younger, and now I’m just like man, I really enjoy just being here, you know. So it’s interesting. That whole going home concept is probably something I’d write down and think about later on as well, cause I feel like I’m kind of in that world right now. But yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m excited to see the direction of this forage join, Like, yeah, I think that that’s a cool concept, you know, and I think that me as a man, I think it’s really important that we have connections with other men and try to make ourselves better, you know, and even from a mentorship perspective, I find it that you know us as men. We’re responsible for helping other men grow as well, you know, as next generation. So I see a lot of promise there, man.

Jon Mayo: 7:56
Yeah, it’s fun and there there’s such like. Some of the tenants of it are radical candor, radical vulnerability, and the reason both of those are necessary is because, like well, how do you cultivate trust, especially because these groups, most of these guys, don’t know each other when they get together. From the two groups there may be one or two connections deep, and then the other five to six guys you’ve never met, from Adam. So it’s like one of the questions that I’m working through with my counterpart, with Tim, who’s taken on the initiative as the Community Growth Director to help scale and grow this so we can make it accessible to more people, is how do we shorten the time horizon of we have a group of dudes who don’t know each other and likely perceive, despite intentional messaging, that this is a fitness accountability group and not a whole human initiative, and get past that to the point of shared understanding and to where we are building trust and therefore creating value in our own lives, in one another’s lives, and that pursuing that beautiful question has rendered a lot of fun stuff. But you’re absolutely right, like well, you consistently, daily, lead by example, and in leading by example you extended yourself vulnerably, as an expression of trust to create the space to allow other men to do that. So it’s very much so. Not some a cheese moe, like you know, caricature of masculinity. It is the full spectrum of feel deeply, think deeply, love deeply and have radical capacity for violence as necessary to protect that which needs protection and to progress that which needs progression, but then to keep that violence under self constraint unless absolutely necessary and therefore you have capacity. So it’s this. It is an absolute fun thing and we can keep exploring it. Now we can also explore it offline, because I’d love to offer and discuss a few concepts of it with you. But it’s beautiful because you’re right. The I think the circles of leadership always start with the self and concentrically pull, pull poor outwards right, and in the group you’re constantly mentoring and leading one another. But your effectiveness at that, at least from observations thus far, is only as good as the intensity that is focused on yourself. So it’s been really neat.

Joe Bogdan: 10:17
Yeah, yeah, I could see. I could see that you know you’re talking about to like some people might look at it initially as a, as a fitness accountability group and you wonder, like you know what the what your acceptance rate is is like okay, so this person does see it is that. But then, as they’re in there with the group, you know, and they’re having the communications that are bringing value to them, and then they start expanding out. You know what I mean. Like it’s almost like it doesn’t matter that they first entered thinking it was that, because they’re probably going to get a lot more out of it afterwards, you know. So a lot of people need that, whatever that thing is, to get them in, and I think that there’s a lot of value there and then maybe that person that’s so into the fitness could bring another level of that fitness to everybody else as well. So, yeah, yeah, I think definitely want to talk to you about this offline, because I think it it lines up with some of the things that I find really important. And you’re right, you’re not introspective and look for self and self growth and you’re just kind of there navigating, trying to provide mentorship and growth to everybody else. You’re not growing yourself. A lot of times you start setting those limitations and you don’t even realize you’re doing it.

Jon Mayo: 11:29
And you’re just operating at least my observation is you’re operating off a poor foundation and the concepts may be proven and true, they may be learned. But there comes a point where, if you don’t have that strong foundation that is continually being fortified, it does weaken and can begin to cave. And then, when things do hit the fan, or just after enough stagnation or time pass, you can begin to see the degradation right of the self. Or you can find the limit of the individual. It’s like, okay, this guy’s a one trick pony, or he has like three, three cards up his thing, but he’s learned them, continues to use them and that’s all he has. He’s not cultivating anything else. So you can kind of begin to learn the limitations of people who aren’t putting this themselves through that intense heat and pressure. You know, continue to cultivate the skill sets and it becomes fun because you can have such a radical conversation like hey man, I think you’re checking the block. I’ve said the same thing for the last 200 days, what is actually going on here? And? And then that becomes just an and it’s always done, you know, with respect and love, but it can be pretty brutal also. And in that space, right, because it’s constructive. There’s opportunity and that opportunity can be taken or squandered. And you know, one of the elements I didn’t share earlier and it’s just kind of fun because it ties it in is if you don’t contribute each day, you miss one day, you’re excommunicated, you’re gone and you have the opportunity, should you pursue it, to earn your way back in and then if you, after meeting those requirements, the group has to vote unanimously to accept you back in after you’ve done the requirements, and it’s typically just a grueling training session that’s tailored to the individual, so, and then they have to express their reflections on what it is that makes them want to come back in after missing the day. And then there’s the vote and you come back in. And you know it’s fun because one of the elements that’s been so interesting to me on that is we’re creating ceremony and tradition around these activities, and I don’t think that base function. They’re necessary, but they do add this air of importance and like beauty to it. Right, that you want to uphold. You want to uphold the standard you want to, you don’t want to break it, and it’s almost like it feeds itself. Right, the flame feeds itself. So, by putting a little bit of tradition and flair. And, yeah, ceremony to some of these events, like someone getting brought in, someone re-earning their way back in, someone being removed, and then the rest of it is just super authentic and genuine. But having that one, it game-isers it a little bit and makes it a little bit more fun, but it also makes it like I do not want to be in that seat, or this is really cool coming in, or you know these different elements and yeah, it’s been a really fun social experiment that I don’t intend on stopping.

Joe Bogdan: 14:39
So yeah, I think that’s good. You know, the piece of the ceremony I don’t think we put enough attention on those things. As busy as we are in life, just letting things get away from us and not even stopping for a moment to whether it’s celebrate or mourn or whatever. It is like you know. I think you know, having some type of ceremony for this stuff, it not only shows like the importance of it, but it makes people feel like they’re part of something Right, and it’s not just in and out like hey, today I feel like it, so they’re just going to let me right back in and tomorrow I don’t feel like it, so it’s fine. You know, I mean that ceremony puts added value on it and as humans, you know, we like to attach those symbols, those feelings towards symbols. So I think that’s a good way to look at it. I’d be curious to see what the ceremony looks like. I mean, I know I realize a grueling type of workout maybe, and then you bring them on. I’d be curious to see some of the tactical level things on what, how you guys execute these things.

Jon Mayo: 15:34
Yeah, absolutely, and I kind of want to share just a wee bit about it now, just because I don’t want to have the wrong picture go out into the the universe. Right, yeah, before we have, because we’re building all the resources and it’ll become public sooner than later. We’re not wanting to rush to failure on this one. We want it to be quality. So, because when you’re working with human beings, it’s very messy and it’s very easy for an intent you know what is the saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So we want to have the correct parameters in place to safeguard the intent properly and well, so that it doesn’t turn into some caricature of some weird fringe group of oddness. Right, that’s problematic and with that mind, right, ceremony is a word that’s many connotations, but it, for example, the way it would work is, let’s say, you’re in it and you didn’t contribute. Right, you’ll get a message from the for the facilitator hey, you didn’t contribute, your excommunicated. You chose to not prioritize contribution, your excommunicated. In every word there is very intentional, because it was a choice and it was a matter of prioritization out of time, and therefore you’re out and then you’re removed and you can, and then there’s always offline conversations. If you choose that you want to go back in, there’s a separate chat called the arena and the facilitator will bring everyone from the forge into the arena and the person who’s stepping back into the arena to earn their way back in and it’s in that it’s name of the chat there’s like some energy and some fun that goes with that, but it’s like the arena opens for the event and then, after the events done, the arena closes and that serves a couple of functions. It doesn’t clog up the primary conversation platform but also allows okay, here you go, you’ve decided to work to earn your way back in. Here’s what your contribution and your penalty for reentrances. Please do it. You have to share the experience throughout. Videos pictures everything as you’re doing it. They typically last around four hours and also show your reflections throughout and at the end on why it is that you were willing to submit yourself to this type of like torture, because they’re pretty hard workouts. Like why is it that you’re willing to bear up under the weight of this responsibility and why is it that you want back in? Because you’re of your own free will, deciding to subjugate yourself to greater responsibility and burden. Why and why is it that, after missing the day, and maybe human error, maybe technology, maybe just you messed up, but why is it that you now want back in enough to do this? And they communicate through that? And then the facilitator be like all right, everyone, and like everyone kind of, can talk and interact throughout the whole thing, right? And then at the end there’s like all right, well, we’ve heard it all, we’ve seen it all, it’s time to vote. And then every person’s like yes or no, or if they have questions, or they’re like hey, I don’t think you really pushed here, I don’t like this. You know there’s opportunity for dialogue towards clarity and shared understanding. And then, ultimately, they render their votes and if it’s unanimous, then it’s like welcome the facilitator, add them back to the forge and he’ll remove everyone from the arena. And then it’s like okay, the games are over, right, right. And if it’s not unanimous, there’s an opportunity to either rectify whatever the concern is or no luck because it, because it’s it’s like a fellowship of free man, right, everyone’s vote is equal. So it’s like all right, well, this guy saw no, and therefore, despite everything, you’re out and that’s obviously. There’s enough conversation for there to be understanding there. So that’s kind of how that the ceremony of it works right. It’s not like some weird.

Joe Bogdan: 19:23
You’re not all in cloaks and like, yeah, yeah, got it.

Jon Mayo: 19:26
Yeah, but that’s kind of like how we’ve made it a tradition right and it’s been fun.

Joe Bogdan: 19:31
Yeah, it sounds like it, man. Yeah, that’s pretty cool.

Jon Mayo: 19:36
You. You had made a comment earlier about the like, working to find your way home element right as a metaphor and then also as something you’re actually experiencing in your life, and I felt so known in that moment because I feel so strongly that way as well. But I was curious just for the context of everyone. One of the reasons I wanted to share that concept specifically and then we both got jazzed up on the on the forge is in this idea that we’re all trying to find our way home. If you add to it, as we’re journeying and working to find our way towards peace and towards the life that we want to live, right, maximize life, we have the opportunity to learn significantly from one another, and the way I picture it is if you and I run into each other on a trail and we’re navigating towards our home right, this metaphorical home. While we’re going, we can exchange resources and tools and lessons learned and things that we’ve observed, and then we can split back off and our continued journey, or journey for a long time together. And with that in mind, you know, this conversation is exactly like that we’re coming together and when the conversation is done, we split back off. But what value, what insights, what tools right Are we capable of sharing with one another from our proceeds? And that’s where, given your background and everything else, if you were willing to share a little bit of context about what you’re coming from, some of the efforts that you’ve worked on, and how you see the pursuit of leading a maximized life and hoping others to do that, I think that’d be a really fun dimension to bring into this that we can continue to explore from.

Joe Bogdan: 21:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’d love to share a little bit. So you know, I’ll start at the beginning. Actually, I’m immigrated to the country I was born in, south Korea, came to the States when I was about three years old. I had a single mother most of the time and lived in what probably most people would consider less than ideal circumstances, and both the East Coast and moved over to Washington State when I was a teenager and then got to join the Air Force. You know, and I honestly I tell people I joined Air Force out of necessity back 22 years ago, and some of the listed teammates they probably feel me when I say usually, you know we’re either running towards something or running away from something, and I was kind of probably in between those two, a little bit of both. I ended up joining and I tell people I joined the Air Force to not go to school. I didn’t think I was mature enough, I didn’t think I was ready and, interestingly enough, now you know, 22 years later, I have. The Air Force gave me opportunities to get many degrees with very little money out of pocket and even to the point where I gave me the opportunity really to be an adjunct professor of leadership studies at a couple universities so we get to do that on the side and started off in the Air Force as a generator mechanic. Basically, you know, I was a grease monkey. I changed oil a lot, I changed out electrical panels and generated power and deployed environments or backup power at home station and got a lot of experience there in the civil engineer career field, leading a lot of different, different types of groups and skills and tradesmen. And at some point I got an opportunity to go do some social work, social services work, doing some career broadening. And I tell people during that time I did not want to do it but I had a mentor that pushed me into doing this. For about four years I’m working with family members, dependents, airmen that were struggling, actually all service members we serve all of them that were struggling, whether it was financially or they had some personal issues, did counseling and a lot of teaching and during that time I said that I you know that that development opportunity gave me some key traits and skills, such as empathy, kindness, patience and generosity, that I just didn’t have prior to that opportunity. So really gave me a lot, of, a lot more of those opportunities and growth to the point where I think I found what I consider my purpose, and it is to teach, is to help others become better. And of course, in that pursuit, like we talked about, I always feel like I have to continue to be better. So my life mantra is better has no finish line. So I’m constantly trying to figure out how I can improve so I can help others and continue my leadership journey in the Air Force. And at some point I got a very cryptic message when I was stationed in Korea for my third time, asking if I wanted to come to the Pentagon to basically do workforce development for the entire listed core of about 410,000 people. I shaped strategy and I advise senior Air Force leaders on the direction of our development, which includes, you know, training, education and also career broadening. So I dabble in all of those things and, married to another military member, my wife is a senior mass sergeant that is specialized in dental hygiene and she runs a clinic at the base One of the bases near here and we have a puppy. His name is Marcus Aurelius Bogdan and named after one of my all time heroes in history. And we live here in Virginia. And yeah, you talk about life transition. You know I tell people. Often they’re like hey, how long are you going to be in? Are you going to do the full 30? Are you going to do this? I’m like, honestly, I’m in this place where I’m very content and my faith and my family guides me everywhere and in reality, I’m on the two to eight year exit strategy. I don’t know what I’m going to be doing. I just know that I’m running some major projects on how we’re advancing development for our Air Force and I definitely want to get those projects over the line over the next couple of years and we’ll see what’s next after that. But yeah, that’s kind of a mean and I show I know you pointed out Lima, charlie Network and Lama Lounge. I have a core group of buddies that we’ve known each other for over a decade and we always we had this. We’re very different in our perspectives. We have we’re all come from different career fields within the Air Force, but we had this. This one uniting factor with us was that we wanted to help advance others, you know, help them grow and we came together and we started a podcast, a website and LLC on maybe a future consulting and coaching. But that’s that’s us in a nutshell. We do a lot of those things and if you go to a lot more leadershipcom, you’ll see some of the work that we’re doing. We had a podcast but I honestly I just got way too busy in life trying to be a good husband, a good airman and and a couple of the other things I had going on that I wasn’t able to keep that podcast going, so right now it’s in retirement. It might come back one day when we have some more bandwidth. But but yeah, yeah, john, and just super grateful I know we had a conversation a while ago. I love what you’re doing with your podcast and and love to have any discussions about you know whether that’s I know, disciplines a big piece of, of being relentless and that’s something that I take very seriously as well and fitness and all that stuff.

Jon Mayo: 26:47
So, yeah, Well, that was a beautifully concise so. So when I hear something that excites me, I’m like a shark with blood in the water, to contextualize that incoherent thought. But I want to see what you think about one of the comments you made and what you shared. And you said that you currently retired the podcast because you wanted to be a good husband and good airman right, and you just were too busy so that had to go off. And what’s interesting to me is in how you said it. What it read more like to me is you’re not too. You made a prioritization choice. You prioritized being a good husband, you prioritized being a good airman and, because of what the requirements in the season look like, you identified that you could not sustain the podcast and do it well. So therefore, you put it through retirement for now.

Joe Bogdan: 27:51
Yeah, Is that a that’s 100% accurate? I was telling people, you know, I felt like I was doing 10 things poorly and I didn’t figure out which the most important things were. So I can do those well. So, yeah, that was just one of the ones I had to go.

Jon Mayo: 28:07
Well, what’s beautiful about that is it’s so often and I’m a fanatic tyrant about this Words mean things right With so much intention, like they mean so much on so many levels and to say which you did not do right, which is why I want to clarify and high five on that. But if someone’s like, oh, I’m just too busy so I can’t X right, whatever X is, my challenge and retort to that always is no, you have a prioritization issue and maybe that’s fine, like, maybe your priorities are exactly in line. But if we never again say I’m too busy and instead we always say prioritize instead of busy, it changes At least it’s changed my entire interaction with time and everything that I do. Because if someone’s like, hey, will you come to this? I can easily say I’m too busy. Everyone understands that, everyone accepts that, no one challenges it. But if instead I said, hey, man, I can’t prioritize that right now. I hope you have a great time. The amount of ownership that that requires one for me to do, because I have to then make a value judgment and then to communicate that and then be willing to push to understanding with my friends in case that hurts feelings where it has you, which it very well can. It’s such a crucial element. So I want to see what you thought about that, because about that tweak from saying I was too busy to I made a prioritization and judgment call and I’m living with that and I’m happy with that, right.

Joe Bogdan: 29:43
Yeah, I actually had. It was funny because I had an airman come to me and I’ve been. I built a reputation around being able to do a lot of stuff, and I don’t know I’m not saying I’m proud of that, but it felt like I just I was able to do a lot of stuff. And I’m actually curious to see your thoughts on this other point that I just wrote down before once I answered this question, because I feel like some people feel like they’re busy, like you said, quote unquote busy because they’ve never been stretched. They have a couple of things going on and they don’t. You know what I mean. I mean, some of us are. You know we have this giant banquet plate. You know we got their buffet plate that we’re able to fill stuff on. Some people, you know, are operating off of a little side salad plate. Still, you know, maybe because they just haven’t had that stretch at some point in their career and I think, or in their life and earlier on, I think I had the blessing of getting stretched at one point early on, and while it was very impressionable in my career, so I felt like I developed this big buffet plate, that comes with some challenges later on, though, because I did fall victim to what I call hustle culture for a while. You know, you’re just like looking like you’re so busy and you take it as a badge of honor and then I think things start to degrade around you and you don’t even notice until it’s too late. But I had an airman come to me when I was on my last deployment and he was just like, chief, you’re doing so much stuff. You know, I just feel like I want to do more stuff and I want to grow and do all these things. I was like, well, what’s the problem? And he said I just don’t have enough time. You know, like I think we all have the same amount of time. So what are you spending your time on? You know what I mean. So let’s walk through that. So tell me, you know, what do you do when you wake up? What do you do? And you know, he walked through today and then we discovered there’s a lot of YouTube time on there and it’s not like growing YouTube. You know, like I’ll put on YouTube and learn some stuff, but it wasn’t that kind of YouTube. It was probably like cat videos and whatever else. There was a lot of video games, a lot of that stuff, you know, and I told him you don’t have a. You don’t have a time problem, man, you have a discipline problem. You know what I mean, because you’re saying that you want to do these things, but you’re spending your time inconsistent with what you’re saying. You know you’re doing. You’re doing something different. So I think that you really need to identify what’s really important to you and then you start prioritizing those things, like like you had mentioned, john. So I think that’s to me. You know, we all have to save a lot of time Because we say these are things we want to do, because Instagram tells us these are things are important, or we start comparing ourselves to other people and what they perceive as their white picket fence and you’re like, yeah, I want to do that too Because of the results that those people are getting. We think that you know, we don’t do the deep inner work to determine what’s actually important to us. So we, if you don’t do that, how do you prioritize If you don’t even know what’s really important to you? You know, and it takes time. I don’t think people just come out the box knowing that stuff. To me it took a long time to realize, hey, for me, my priority is faith and I’ve identified that being a good husband to my wife is me exercising my faith. You know, and that’s just one of the things that I absolutely is a non-negotiable you know, I cook dinner for her, I do these things, you know, I do those things because that not only exercises that. That is me living consistent, walking in consistency with what I am prioritizing. What I’m saying is prioritizing. I see a lot of people say their family is the most important to them, but they don’t act that way, you know, and they struggle. And then it also lines up what another part of my purpose that you and I we kind of talked a little bit about a while ago was. You know, as men, it’s important for us to help, mentor and group and coach other men, right, and I’m still, I’m very coachable, I’m learning as well from other men like you, right, but you had brought it up by example is the best type of leadership. So when I opened the door for my wife, you know, or I pulled the seat out for her, I feel that that is being a man, you know, and that is showing that example and it’s a teaching method as well. So I think that’s. Those are just kind of my thoughts. I know it’s kind of extreme unconscious to stare on what you brought up, but I love what you talked about. When you’re prioritizing and sometimes it might make people mad that you say no to them. I just, you know, I just got a lot of stuff, you know, got a couple of irons on the hot irons right now going and I just can’t do that and I would not do you justice by committing to something you’re asking me to do and then not being able to follow through or following through, you know, like half baked and I think that that would not work out. So I know that you may be unhappy that I can’t commit to you, but you would be more unhappy if I committed and wasn’t able to follow through. So I’ve, just because I’ve had many people say yes to me on things and then they don’t follow through and there are some resentment there, I’m very irritated with just saying no. If you can’t do it, man, just say no. You know I mean now you got me hanging over here, you know, and one of my values growing up was, hey, if you commit to something, you follow through, you know. So. So just, I know, extreme unconsciousness is kind of went off on a tangent there, brother.

Jon Mayo: 34:43
Well, that’s the joy and freedom of doing what we’re doing, right, we’re sitting here sipping our coffee, having I don’t know, I’m having a blast. I hope you are. Yeah, absolutely, and there’s a lot of things in there. So, with the airmen, right, we’re like you don’t? You don’t have a time problem, you have a discipline problem. I pushed back a little bit. I don’t think you’re wrong, but I think that there’s a missing element. First, you don’t have a time problem, you have an awareness problem, and once you have the awareness, then you might have a discipline problem if you don’t take the appropriate changes. But right now, you’re just naive to the reality of the fact that we both have the buffet plates. Yours is just filled with a bunch of garbage that you’re not even aware of how it’s sucking your time and therefore you feel like you have no time but that. But let’s peel back the curtain and gain that awareness and then set you up to begin evaluating that, and then you either accept that or you work to change it. If you determine to change it and you don’t, then you have a discipline problem through and through Right. And that’s which which I think. That’s an important distinction, because I think it further empowers the individual to take action, because one of the things that Brandon the podcast this, this shows podcast producer he’s phenomenal, and one of the things that he often will debate is the wrong term, but we’ll go back and forth and explore it’s like, let me guess you just do it Right. And he’s like that that’s not enough. I need understanding, right, and he’s 100% correct. If I’m like, yeah, just do this, it’s like, well, screw you, man. Like that doesn’t help me, you know Right. And once I have awareness, though, and I can create a path in my own existence to understanding and to change, then I have the freedom to actually begin doing it. And some you know and there there is a tension between two truths here that that’s true on one hand, and sometimes mood falls action, and you just have to start putting in the work and then allowing that to further show and reveal more awareness, right? So there’s definitely living in the tension of those two truths. That has to occur, but that jumped out to me. So I agree that there’s likely also a discipline issue, but preceding it would come awareness, and what do you think about that? And then I’ll keep jumping into it. I agree with you.

Joe Bogdan: 37:05
Yeah, I agree with you. There was definitely an awareness issue and I think because you you know, if anybody was in the room when we were having that conversation and we were actually jotting down what he was actually spending his time on, you know, maybe we didn’t, you know, I didn’t articulate the awareness piece of that, but that was, you could see the light bulb going on his head when he started seeing what he was spending his time on and I was like, yeah, look at this. I mean like, and then we started talking about what you’re saying. You want this, you want a, but you’re doing a whole bunch of B. You know what I mean, cause, look, we just wrote it down and saw what your schedule, what your day looks like and and yeah, you 100% awareness was, was these light bulbs just going off in his head? And? And at that point, you know, he needed some education on some things. So actually I hadn’t had atomic habits on my desk and I was like, hey, go read, read this, you know, and come back to me and about, you know, we give me an update on what you’ve read so far, and we, you know, we’re deployed, so we have plenty of opportunities to run into each other regularly, right? So so he was giving me some some updates on that and I think it really helped. And, and you see, you see him now. You know he was, he wanted to get promoted and he was just struggling and I saw on Facebook a while ago that, you know, he got promoted. So it seems like things are working out for him. But, yeah, you’re 100% right Aware and you know, I think awareness I love how you break it down a bit more to that granular level, because I think to me, awareness has got to be the foundation to everything. If you’re just not aware of something you know, how can you exert discipline, how can you leverage some of these things If you’re just not aware, you know, and some of that is going to take some deep work, Some of that is going to take some coaching, you know.

Jon Mayo: 38:47
Absolutely, and the reason I am grateful that we’re unpacking this to the level and depth that we are is, let’s say, there’s a first time listener and this is that conversation right, and they’re like, oh, I want the same thing. By us breaking it open and identifying yes, it was awareness, then it was instruction right, and then it was discipline. And that cycle never stops Awareness, instruction, discipline, boom, boom, boom, boom. I imagine that for someone who’s hearing this type of an idea for the first time, that is so much more freedom giving and empowering to make okay, what questions do I need to ask? Or what questions did this create that allow me to pull on the thread, to begin to work towards discipline, because I could empathize that if this is a new topic, that otherwise it’s like, okay, I guess I’m just not a discipline whatever. That sucks. So instead we were able to unpack the reality of the situation a bit more and hopefully equip someone for success in a conversation where you and I are both pulling from vast memories and understandings that aren’t being articulated in the moment. So I appreciate the deep dive and one of the things that to expound upon it or to further the direction a little bit more is. It’s very difficult, especially when we’re talking about this buffet plate that’s filled with all these things that we’re not aware of. It’s super difficult to understand where other people’s influence or organizations influences end and our unconsciousness begins. Because, with social media and radio music, the news, like all of the areas that we’re getting our information diet from there, are billions and billions of dollars at play to one capture our attention and the attention economy we live in. But then to also run narratives in all sorts of directions to further fuel those machines and desires, both short and long term, of those organizations. And why I think this is important is because, when we’re talking about the awareness thing and you mentioned the idea of like, do we want to do these things? Because we see someone on Instagram doing it? Right, that’s like a great example of like. Well, we see someone on Instagram. We think that they have the type of success we want, so we want to emulate that. We haven’t identified what we really want, right? Well, that comes into the deep work, right, that deep inner work of like. Well, how the heck do you do that? And how do you ever find your voice if you’re always being drowned out by a chorus of others? And it was fascinating because I had an opportunity to reflect on this last night. But about two years ago I went like radio silent on all forms of media for about two months and at that time I was running just over 5k every day out here in the high plains in Colorado and you know, you’re just running through howling, wind and blizzards and sometimes sunny days, which were nice, but it was just silence. And it took about a month for me to stop hearing all of these different ideas and stuff that were circling and to recognize oh my goodness, that’s me, this is me, this is my voice, and then to be able to identify that and cultivate that over the course of another month so that now I have a distinct understanding of what am I thinking versus what am I hearing. And there’s always some form of like overlap, right, because we’re being influenced and stuff, and it takes so much attentionality. But it took a surprising amount of time to cut off the stimulus before it became crystal clear where the influence was ending and where I was beginning. And, given what we’re talking about and how the plates get filled so quickly with all these things, I just want to see how that strikes you.

Joe Bogdan: 42:39
When you shared that to me. I think we talk a lot in my household about discernment and, on many levels, whether that’s the sermon of my expectations versus other people’s expectations of me who, in my life, fill whatever roles in this season right, and all those things and I had a moment similar to what you’re describing. So during 2020 to 2021, I was getting ready to go on my most recent deployment, and 2020, 2021, it was a world going through, right, so going through a pandemic, and I had to go to multiple training sessions prior to that. Well, in each session where we’re out in the field doing stuff, they want to make sure that we’re clean before we get into that training environment right, and then also clean before you come back. So, multiple times where we’re just in separation we used to joke about it we’re basically in solitary right, we’re in these rooms, no one’s able to come to our rooms, we’re not allowed to leave. Someone actually dropped food off in front of our rooms a couple times a day. And technology made it a lot better because I was able to still have conversations with people through methods like this, like Zoom, and so it was kind of cool. I was actually able to return out quite a few episodes of the long lounge during that time, while I’m just sitting there in confinement. And then we had one hour of what we called yard time to get out in the sun and separate from everybody, to get some workouts in. So plenty of workouts. But during that time you’re right, like I felt like I was kind of to a point where I was isolated and I got to really do the work and I was really into the intentionality because other people were probably still sitting around YouTube, still doing social media all day. For me I didn’t even turn the TV on. I had a list. Everybody know they started. People that know me and they’re connecting me on social media. They saw it was called a quarantine list and basically every day, every hour or whatever was broken down this many push ups, this many whatever, you know. I mean it was just broken down reading this many books and I had a goal to get after that and during that time and the reason why I did that was because I wanted to show people that you don’t have to like just waste these moments, you know, or just be what was me, that I’m stuck in this confinement and this quarantine, and I wish I was going to do something else. I wanted to show people that you can produce, you can better yourselves during these times. So I was sharing my journey during those and it was multiple quarantines. I’m telling you what, john, it was like. It was a lot. And I was also in this transition phase where I was going through a very long, drawn out divorce with my ex, because during quarantine it’s kind of hard to get your paperwork submitted, you know, during all the stuff in a pandemic. So it was just a little bit more drawn out, because time and trying to get divorced in California during a normal, like non-tandemic, it’s already, it already extends out, but doing that during a pandemic was very difficult. So you know, I was going to do that transition, so like transitioning to a deployment, and a lot of other things were in flux during that time. So I was in that into quarantine and just like you know, just self-reflecting a lot and a lot of those other distractions that were removed, some intentionally by me, right and I was left to myself and I started thinking I was, like you know, the roommate in my head though I don’t think it, he was a good friend at that time either. There was a lot of, a lot of going back and I was like wondering where that was coming from. And after all of that I got, you know, I think I got so much clarity, even transition phases. I feel like we we try to speed through them because nobody feels comfortable in those transition phases. I know, as a vet, you know when you move from one base to another, what you try to do get settled in as quick as possible and get into the job so you don’t have to, you know, take on that experience. You don’t like it, it feels not good and I was forced to kind of sit in it and I thought to myself what can I learn from being in this environment having all this anxiety? Not really, you know. So doing some of that deep work in that time really helped me with that discernment phase of what’s important to me and what’s not, you know, and it brought that awareness to me and helped me even define core values, my life philosophy, my leadership philosophy. You know, really taking that time to do those things and I think that really helped guide me moving forward. But most of us don’t have that opportunity, you know. You have to make that opportunity and I think that it causes us to not have the awareness that you talked about, and if you’re not aware of it, how can you even have an extra plan to try to fix it? So I noticed at that point that my priorities were all in whack. They were all over the place, you know, and I think that there’s a lot to that. So, yeah, those are kind of my thoughts on what you’re talking about.

Jon Mayo: 47:39
Yeah, I fully agree. You have to force, prioritize and make the opportunity to do that to yourself, Because I don’t. It’d be very strange. I think there’s very few circumstances and I would not want to be subjected to any of them where it’s being forced upon me.

Joe Bogdan: 47:56
Yeah, yeah, man, what was that guy? Who was the guy? He was on Rogan, but he also he was part owner of, oh, jesse Itzler. Yeah, he wrote a book. He wrote a couple books, one with living with the monks, I think, or something. But he actually put himself in that situation where he was in solitude with the monks and, you know, in a little room and I was like man, could I do that? You know? I mean that’s interesting, that was interesting and I think he got a lot of self-reflection from that. And then the whole other thing a Goggins, I bet you that was exciting, but yeah, but he said something profound that I think really also helped me kind of center myself on those priorities as we’re talking about. He talked about time and I started seeing time in a whole different fashion after he said it. And he said, you know, his parents, I think, were in the 80s, they’re in their 80s. And he said, man, you know, by averages I hope they’re around a lot longer, but I probably got about 10 years on average with my parents and I look at it that way and I look at them just like I got 10 years with my parents. But he was like but then I broke it down. I see my parents twice a year. I got 20 visits left for my parents. It was like you know, my family has 20 visits left for my parents. My kids will see them 20 more times maybe. And he was like now that 20 times, when you look at it, 20 times, 20 visits versus 10 years, you know, now you’re like I got to put the phone down, I got to be present in this moment, you know, and I started thinking about it. I was like, when you look at it like that, I think that it makes you a lot more intentional with your time.

Jon Mayo: 49:35
Absolutely. I love that construct, that frame of thought. One of the ways that it keeps striking home for me is I don’t have nine more years with my oldest. I have four sons. I have nine more summers, right. I have nine more falls. I have nine more winters, right. Nine more Christmases before he’s out of the house, right, and then he’s the fewest number, so I’m most aware of that. But then I only have 10 or 11 with the others, right. So I love reframing our relationship with time, because time is a construct we’ve made up anyways, right, to measure the moments of our fleeting lives. So it is only to our benefit to understand the true value that they possess due to how fleeting they are. And then, when we add to that construct, okay, based upon this estimation, I have 20 more visits with my parents right, two a year for roughly 10 years. If we add to that, not a single one of those visits is guaranteed, and I could very well die today driving home from work, or one of my parents could, or any of these other things, right, in this infinite realm of possibilities. It’s not to the reflection, right? That momentum Mori type of reflection is not meant to cause anxiety, but it’s meant to, in the same way of recontextualize the circumstances that we’re probably taking for granted and wasting because it’s like, ok, if today is not guaranteed and tomorrow is not guaranteed, then maybe I can live today as if it’s its own life, right, and in so doing really seek to maximize it and do that again tomorrow and then plan intentionally so maybe it’s not 20 visits but it’s 30 or 40. And if volume doesn’t work, be super intentional that those 20 visits rock right, every one of the ones that we get to take, and not take any of them for granted as we progress. You know that there’s just beauty in the adding layers to just how precious these moments are. Like the fact that you and I get to do this, that we prioritize this time away from our brides and from our other priorities, is no small feat, like it’s no small thing in my mind. It is a huge gift and investment and that’s where it’s like show up 100 percent ironed in, ready to engage, because I’ve had 70 instances on the show so far, roughly, and I don’t know how many more I’ll have. But I want each one to be excellent and one of the reasons I started the show one it’s been a litany of forcing functions for myself. But also I was thinking about what if I do eat it while my children are young? Perhaps I can begin to create a repository of action based fruit bearing example that they can reflect and Russell agree and disagree with that goes beyond me. That they can have right and it’s one of the driving motivations behind writing my book as well was OK, what if I don’t take for granted that I’ll be there when they’re young men? And how can I still be there with them in mind and spirit and give them the best instruction for my own wrestling as possible for them, to add to the course of voices that are helping them right? And in that way it also adds this dimensionality of you know, we may only have 20 visits right From, like the Jesse Itzler construct, but how can we eternalize those? Not for the world, perhaps, but for those who were working to make life better for now, you know, and in that tension a lot of cool things has and continues to be unearthed.

Joe Bogdan: 53:27
Yeah, I can imagine when you’re talking about those forcing functions is brought to you. I mean, when I was doing my podcast I would say, you know, I started off with the intention to be able to leave others, you know, with something you know that they can gain from, bring value to others. And as an airman, you know I’m not, you know I’m not absent minded when it comes to knowing that there’s there’s there’s better leaders than others. Sometimes Some people don’t have that mentorship right above them. You know that they’re seeking, but there’s a lot of other opportunities. So the podcast, I thought, was an opportunity that some of those younger teammates can listen to conversations with leaders that they may never be would have been able to hear, you know, some of these conversations on perspectives and things. So did that. But in that man I learned so much, you know, and like I learned something from every single person I ever talked to. And then the other thing that I brought to me was at a time where I think I was a little bit pessimistic about stuff, it really kind of almost reignited my faith in humanity because there’s so many amazing people out there doing amazing things. And you know, the podcast kind of brought that space, you know, to me and we were all of those conversations and I was like, man, this is some amazing stuff. So you know, I learned a ton from that way, more than anybody probably got out of the podcast line from me.

Jon Mayo: 54:46
So, yeah, I’m grateful you said that because I fully agree. Part of the sentiment that helped to inspire starting the journey was that, and it’s one of the fruits still that I’m grateful for. Right, like, okay, it can be this for my kids or that or what have you, but my primary metric, like my KPI for the success of our show currently, and will continue to be, was the conversation value creating for those who participated. If it’s valuable for you, if this conversation is a win for you and it’s a win for me and Brandon enjoyed listening to it and putting it together and putting into the world and the three of us are like that was great, then the rest to me frankly doesn’t matter compared to that, because we invest our time, it was well spent, we gained a lot from it, and then we’re also being vulnerable and courageous enough to put it out there into the world for others to do with it as they please, and I think that’s an important plumb liner primary metric because it also keeps us true to pursuing excellent conversation right.

Joe Bogdan: 55:48
Yeah, as opposed to an algorithm. Yeah, I think that what you’re saying there to me is like you know I’m a big, big Victor Frankel guy. You know he’s just such an amazing person, his books were amazing. But when you know he he alludes to the fact that you kind of have to find your meaning as something more transcendent, beyond, like something you can touch. You know it’s not going to be something tangible because those things can be taken away from you. And I think some, some of our peers in this space, you know vanity metrics mean so much to them, like how many listens am I getting, how many downloads am I getting in? There might be some monetary value there when it comes to that, but when you tie yourself to just that, that can be taken away from you. You know, I mean that can absolutely be taken away from you. The whole world could shift and decide they’re not going to do that anymore. But when you take, when you’re meaning and purpose and something is deeper than that into growing as a person, trying to help, you know, I mean I think that when some of those intangibles that are very hard to quantify, that’s going to give you that fulfillment and keep motivating you move forward. I think that’s probably why a lot of people, you know they well, some ridiculous percentage of podcasts don’t get past episode 10. You know, I mean, you know, I mean there’s probably a lot to that. So I think I applaud you on what you’re doing and your perspectives that you’re trying to put out into the world, and that you are putting out into the world, because these are the examples that we need.

Jon Mayo: 57:13
Yeah, thank you, man. And the the Victor Frankel, I’m obsessed with him as well, so I’m glad you brought him up. And when you told me the name of your dog, I was jazzed up pretty heavily, just because I was like, oh yeah, there’s no short of things for us to have fun with. And yeah, victor Frankel, you mentioning him right, like, oh, we’re gonna have to, like I call pursuing significance. We have to pursue significance, right, we have to identify and seek out what that’s going to be. And Jack London, an English poet, he put it very succinctly in a way that I love too. He said Inspirate. You’re not going to fall into inspiration, inspiration is going to find you. You have to light after it with a club, and I love that idea because it’s like, okay, light after, you have to sprint after with great aggression, identify and beat it into submission right. Yeah. But so I love that idea and it’s like, yeah, we, we create the purpose and significance that we pursue. And to make it a framework, I call it second mountain principles or second peak principle thinking or pursuits, and it’s something I’m still creating, but it’s born initially from a book called the Second Mountain by David Brooks, where he wrote an incredible book called the Road Character, which is very interesting. It’s a amalgamation of, I think, like 13 to 15 studies of different individuals and how they cultivated lives of character and learnings from them, both positive and negative. And then his second book on the topic the Second Mountain talks about. You know, at first we’re all pursuing kind of the quintessential American dream, right, you know, house, dog, spouse, good job, that type of stuff. Or like the Super Bowl let’s get to the Super Bowl. Once we win it we’ll be good, right? There’s destinations that can be taken, and the problem is in where a lot of midlife crises begin is once we’ve accomplished those things and realize that our life is slipping by alarmingly swiftly and we’ve accomplished what we set out to do and have no bloody idea of what we’re going to do with the rest of our lives. And that’s where the second principle, the second mountain principle, thinking comes in. It’s like no, if that’s when a lot of people begin pursuing things of significance and purpose, they say what creates value in my life and in the world that I want to pursue, regardless of the money, regardless of these other things? Right, what do I want to pursue for its pursuit’s sake? And you know, victor Frankel, jack London, everything we’re talking about here is like what is a value of purpose, of significance, that we can create, that we can pursue, that brings life to us and those around us? Right? And the primary goal that is behind the show, the book, the universal learning approach, our in front solutions, which this is the first time I’m publicly sharing even that name, so there’s a lot to follow on. That that drives all of that is how it is asking the question of how can we transform aspirations into reality through data and intentional action and how can we infuse second mountain pursuits even as we’re climbing the first mountain, right? So how can we shorten the time horizon and maybe help people say hey, instead of getting here having the midlife crisis, then doing it? Why don’t we incorporate both peaks together such that, as you’re working to create stability and build family and become the type of person you want to become, that you’re also simultaneously pursuing significance, purpose and value, so that, instead of getting to the point where you have quote unquote arrived to realize that you’re nowhere and that you’re going to die soon and that scares you, you get to the point where, as you have more resources, you also have more capability to continue pursuing the things of significance value that you have. Thank you, I just got pretty jazzed up so.

Joe Bogdan: 1:01:09
Yeah, I like it too. I think that it was funny because Naval Ravikant he was on a couple of podcasts I listened to, but he had mentioned this one thing and I don’t necessarily agree with the 100% of the sentiment, but I would say that I understand where it’s coming from. He said everybody wants to be. He was saying, basically, if you want to be happy or whatever, it is like get rich and then worry about being happy, because at that point, to your point, it was like you have to get to a certain point where you’re beyond like okay, am I going to be able to eat tomorrow, am I going to be able to do I have a home? You know what I mean? You got to get to some level of stability and security. There’s Maslow’s hierarchy, all those foundational things, and then and you’ll see a lot of people who reach these successes next thing, they become very philanthropic and some people say, well, maybe they’re just trying to do a tax break. I was like, no, I think some are really looking for that, like they found their meaning, whatever their founder inspiration. And I had, man, what you just shared too. That just kind of hit me when it really spoke to my soul, because when I was a young airman, I always knew that I wanted to be a chief master sergeant. I know a lot of and E9, I know a lot of people say, well, I didn’t know, I was going to be just happy at E7. And you know, if I ever could make it, or I thought I was going to do six years and get out, and there was that with me as well. But in my mind I knew that if I wanted to make this a career, I wanted to get to the top right and I progressed through the ranks at an above average pace and then I made chief master sergeant pretty early in my career and I would say I probably hit the biggest dip in my life, like I was the most depressed I have been. You know, I hit that accomplishment and even though I felt like I did things the right way, I was like what next, what now? And it wasn’t like in my mind. I didn’t think that, you know, as a chief I could do all these things, but for some reason I felt like there was a void. You know, because I’ve been bred to what’s next, you know what’s next. You know, even after I make one promotion, you start looking at how to make the next one, you know, and you know when you finish one degree you start looking at how to get to the next degree. You know, and that was like kind of at a standstill and I was like man, what do I do now? And I would honestly say that was probably the lowest part of my career, like mentally. I just wasn’t in a good place and it took a while before it really. You know that I was able to kind of figure that, reframe that and go after what I found value. And when you talk about inspiration, it took a deliberate effort into finding what inspires me in life to help me continue to be a good airman. You know, it really did Like I started taking up photography, I started doing other things I found a lot of value in like bringing into the world and continuously learning, and I started reading way more books. You know, after I made a Ranking Chief Master. Before that I was busy studying all the time for promotion, you know, and stuff like that. But then I started really growing and growing and I came across Julie Cameron’s the artist’s way, you know, and I’ve never planned to be an artist, but I started doing the daily writings and the journals and everything the morning pages, and it really helped me kind of frame myself and what an artist really is. So yeah, it just struck me when you talked about that Like, yeah, to me I was like I remember I lived that, you know, and I hit what everybody probably thought was the white picket fence of you know of everything and I just like, well, this isn’t it, like that’s not it. What is it? You know what next? You know what is actually? What is success, you know? Is it constantly seeking happiness or is it being content with what you have? You know, started really doing that deep work on myself.

Jon Mayo: 1:04:50
And I went in and pursuing those questions. Right, I recall you said better has no finish line as like your life mantra, and your purpose is to teach for you to be able to say those two things. What immediately screams to me is that you walked through what you just shared, because that is something that you don’t just pick up and like think. It’s something that you pay for through action and pain. But the I couldn’t agree more. So my purpose is to unleash human potential and I pursue that through questions and through a lot of things. But the idea of better has no finish line to fully agree with. Right, there is no true summit. There is us alive and there is us dead. So all of the goals that we have while we’re alive, I look at them going back to the idea of if life is an adventure and our goals to journey through it as well as possible, then all of those goals are just mile markers, they’re just terrain features as we continue forward. But they all so they’re. They never represent the finish, unless we want to die, in which case, like that’s hopefully not the case. So it’s like, okay, when I get to that mile marker, I may not be able to see past it yet, because it might be the horizon for me, but by understanding that it’s just a terrain, feature, mile marker in this journey, in this adventure as a journey forward, then I can know and begin to look for now the changes as I continue forward that the new data that will help me to make an informed decision once I get there right. And I also know, like if we’ve ever looked at the horizon and traveled to it, that when I get to what is my horizon now, I will have a new horizon that I can see. And what’s more is, as I move towards that horizon, the horizon will continue to shift for me unless there’s a significant barrier or something like a mountain. But once I crest that mountain I will see a new horizon and in all of those things that it goes. That’s how I envision, or that’s how I extrapolate upon the idea of better as no finish line.

Joe Bogdan: 1:06:50
It walks. In many ways it kind of helps relinquish this feeling that sometimes we have deep into our DNA of some type of entitlement. Sometimes it also helps us see those obstacles, at those mile markers that we’re inevitably gonna face, and see them as also opportunities to learn and grow. And put yourself into that hot mess, whatever that might be Like, I’m willing to go there. I didn’t. When I first got the call to come to this job, younger version of me might’ve been like I don’t know, I never wanted to go to DC and I’m not even like prepared for that. I’d have no experience in that, I don’t know like this doesn’t sound like a good thing to me. And this one I was like, hey, I just wanna make sure that we pray on it. I mean, my wife talked about it, it’s the best decision for us. And then, but never was it like is that gonna be too big for me? It was more like, hey, I haven’t done that before, it kind of scares me, so let’s go try it so we can grow through it. And I think that that’s kind of how I try to navigate through life in general to get to that next horizon as you described, because there’s always another horizon, right, I mean, I’ll walk with you. I tell people all the time I was like man, the wiser I become, the broader the plane of my own ignorance I discover you know every single time I’m in a room, I’m like man, there are some smart people out here. Man, I’m like the dumbest person in here. I’m in the right room. You know, yes, I’m excited. You know, Like man, you know, I’m always wondering, like what I can learn more from. And yeah, I just like I think that was the awareness piece right there, like what we talked about earlier man, once you’re aware that you don’t really know as much as you think you do, and you don’t know, and you’ll never really know everything you know, I think that there’s some liberation there. I don’t mind saying I don’t know anymore, because I know most of us don’t know a lot. You know. So, yeah, that’s. I think that if there was another life mantra for me, it would probably be that you know Like just hey, the wiser I become Unless.

Jon Mayo: 1:08:54
I know, yet the what I love about that is I’m passionately willing to engage in any exploration with someone who’s open-minded, right, because to be open-minded, yes, it takes some courage, it takes some strength, but it also takes a significant amount of humility. Because and I think this ties in also to like the better has no finish line, this new horizons thing that we’re talking about, because if I’m able to look at everything as a hypothesis, if this, then that right, and with a question mark at the end, then I’m one always gonna be learning, because I’m always eyes wide open, right. Well, I think, if this, then that will happen, and the more that that happens, the stronger the preponderance of evidence to support it. But at any moment that evidence could be shattered by new stimulus, by new data. So if I always keep the question mark and never a period, then that frees me to continue to grow and learn and question and be curious and dance with things right and what it also does, because I was just thinking about, like, what a tragedy it would be to be pursuing something for years and years and years and then to get to it and not only realize that you have that after victory slump and now you need to figure out what you’re gonna do with the rest of your time, but to realize that you never, that once you accomplished it, you wish you hadn’t pursued it because it actually didn’t hold the value you thought it would. And that to me is a horrendous tragedy because about the time spent, and hopefully it can be then transformed and catalyzed into the rest of how you spend your time. Right, but by asking questions and seeking understanding and using the hypothesis model and framework for looking at the world, perhaps a quarter of the way, half the way, three quarters of the way there. By doing that, you realize wait a second, wait a second. Something just clicked and it’s terrifying because I think I may have wasted like. I think that the last 15 years may have brought me to this moment to realizing I’m not going to the next five. Right, what now? What questions, and then pulling on the thread to determine is that true or not? And then maybe adjusting course before spending more resources, more time, because it’s like some sunk cost fallacy or something right. It just creates more freedom.

Joe Bogdan: 1:11:09
Yeah, I wrote down right here liberation. I mean it is absolutely liberating to walk through life with that mentality and that mindset and you know we talk about like some people feel like they wasted so much because they tried something and it didn’t work out. It wasn’t exactly what they thought and I openly share that. You know, I’ve been divorced and I’m married now to the love of my life and I’m a better husband now because of the previous marriage. Like I told my wife all the time, I’m glad you got this version of me, because a version previous to that I don’t know if I would have treated you the way I should. You know what I mean. I don’t know I’m a better man now than I was even just probably two days ago. You know what I mean. Like I constantly try to work on myself, but I think that’s important and I think that when you walk through life in the way, in the manner in which you just shared, it’s liberating and also it makes you like I was the person that was walking through life the opposite of what you described and I found myself a lot more angry at times and I found myself. My value and my belief and my purpose was driven on being right and when I was, when somebody was proving me wrong, I found myself in ethical lapses, trying to twist it so that I could still be right. I was trying to debate to win right versus just finding out, seeking right. I was trying to win right and that just made me unhappy and a lot of people probably didn’t like being around me, so that probably drove more unhappiness. But when walking through life with the question market for every sentence, like you had mentioned, it’s liberating because I don’t feel like I have to be right. You know what I mean. I’m still seeking that right and if somebody else is right then I’m learning from them. I’m not angry, I don’t, and I no longer identified that my purpose is being the one that’s always right. You know, and I didn’t realize I was doing that until much later, when I did some work, but I found that it really did drive this level of contentment with me and a lot more peace inside. You know, and I think that you know us as humans we talk about, you know we should be good stewards of so many things, but we don’t talk enough about how we need to be good stewards of our own peace and I think that that’s a huge part of it.

Jon Mayo: 1:13:29
On the being a good steward of your own peace. In context of what you’re just describing, would you elaborate a wee bit more on how you connect that to being a steward of cultivating peace for yourself? Yeah, yeah.

Joe Bogdan: 1:13:43
So I think that you know I’ve found so many times in my life I was not happy, you know I mean like, and I was, it was. It was not tied to any type of success, because I was pretty successful by most people’s measure, but I found myself unhappy. And I think that you know we talk about walking through like. There’s a couple of things I do to try to be a good steward of my own peace. One is letting go of the feeling like I just talked about, like feeling like you have to be right, like for some reason when I was young I tied that to part of maybe it was because I was often right and people looked to me as a young age because I was relatively intelligent, I’d bring up stuff and they’d be like, look at me, and then it almost became my identity I’m the guy who’s always right, who knows stuff right. And then when I was proven wrong, then it hurt my feelings, you know, and then I then I did stuff that I didn’t need to do to try to try to make myself right, you know, made excuses, externalized a lot more Some other ways that I try to walk through life, because I realized that they were causing me to lose some of my peace was. I try to walk through life feeling like I’m entitled to nothing. You know, whether that’s in my leadership journey or my personal life journey, I’d like not, I am not entitled to anything. Now, that doesn’t mean I don’t believe that people are entitled to a certain, you know, dignity, respect. You know I think that we people should offer that, you know. But at the same time, I walk through life and like I’m not entitled to anything, which means when I get to another workstation, another unit, and I’m the leader and I have a great resume before that, my new team doesn’t care about my resume. They want to know what I’m going to do for them. I need to build trust and learn from. You know I need to gain their trust, as in this new unit. But I think sometimes when you walk through, it’s like I know my resume, man, I’m entitled to walk here, and then rank has its privileges and I get the big office and a parking spot and all this stuff, and then it starts to create issues. And I tell you what? That? Those expectations that that up having because you feel like you have some that comes with that entitlement. It leads to some, some some anger issues, some resentment and issues that affect my piece as well. So those are just a couple of examples. I think you know we’re all as humans, you know we have expectations and you know they say like you know, unmet expectations is is like the, the. The root of all disappointment is suffering. You know, I’ve heard that a couple of times and and I’d say I think that’s true. But one of the biggest reasons why we’re disappointed so often is because we expect ourselves from other people. You know and I try to refrain myself from being that way so that I don’t find myself, you know, that that also is me being a good steward of my piece. I I have all kinds of expectations of myself and other people. I shouldn’t be projecting those onto other people like, and when I do and they don’t meet those expectations about me, even clearly articulating those to them, then I find myself angry and that affects the relationship as well. So there are just a couple of examples.

Jon Mayo: 1:16:41
Hopefully that makes some sense it certainly does, and thank you. And yeah you, you struck me on the bulls. I have one of my. My more significant strugglings that I’ve identified and have been working on is precisely that not holding people to my expectations of myself and projecting them on them. And I’m in a number of scenarios where I have articulated and we’ve high-fived on mutual expectations right to a level, and even when those aren’t met, it’s still, I think, too much of what I’m expecting for myself as opposed to what is perhaps reasonable to expect from others, and I just I feel the pain of that one as well, and I’m continuing to work to navigate away from that lack of peace and hurt and anger that comes from that right. Instead, I’ve began seeking, like, the heart and intent of the other person and the value that they are creating, and this is a very active work in progress. But in doing so, I’m starting to be able to do the same for see myself in the same lens too, like, okay, where are the identifying, where’s the, the wins in this, more so than just the, the exaction of progress, right? So I’ve that just struck a chord with me strongly, that that final element as a means to greater cultivate peace, and I do think the rest of it makes sense as well. And, to that end, one thing that keeps circling in my mind that I’d love to dive into a little bit more with you is talking about the tension of transition, right, and you brought that up earlier on, and I think that’s really important. And I’m walking through a couple of things right now in my own life, as well as with a couple of friends, where there’s a significant impatience in wanting to shorten the time horizon to where we want to be or to the creation of something. And I think that’s a fair question in a worthy pursuit, but it needs counterbalanced by the idea that things of value take time to grow, you know, and oak tree is more valuable for a pine than a reason, but it matures a lot slower. So, kind of like taking the Dallas approach of like have I done what I can to cultivate it today and then can I get out of the way so things can grow and flow right In between those three things I just want to explore with you how would you encourage, how do you navigate yourself? What have you learned to be more effective when you’re working on that deep personal work and working to transform yourself, as opposed to working to pursue a goal or create something. And you’re doing everything you can. It just doesn’t feel like it’s going fast enough or there’s as much quality as you want, things like that. How do you navigate those two scenarios, specifically when you’re in that uncomfortable tension of the in between?

Joe Bogdan: 1:19:34
Yeah, I love that question. Thank you, I would say. The first thing is I love going back to what we talked about earlier is what you brought up was awareness. First, you got to be aware, right, and I didn’t even. I was never aware that I did transition so much and it created so much angst and impatience in me. And why did it drive the impatience? Because it’s not comfortable. I mean, when I started just thinking about something that I commonly I’ve moved many times assignments in my 22 year Air Force career and I’ve hated the move every single time. I just want to get there. I don’t want like out processing, I don’t like in-processing, I just want to get there. And I was like, why am I? And then I try to veil it in this whole concept of, no, I just want to get after admission. No, I just actually hate being in this transition. That’s what it is. That’s what it’s that. And then I start peeling it back on. Every time there’s some big transition, I try to speed through that thing as quick as possible, whether it’s what you’re saying, you’re trying to get after a specific objective, like you’re trying to launch something, but it’s taking time. I’m going through it right now with my wife and I are looking at closing on property and if anybody’s closed on property before. It’s a long, arduous process, even when it goes smoothly, and I’m like can we just get it done, like let’s get it all done? And then I found that I try to speed through it and I don’t make the best decisions because I’m trying to speed through it, trying to get through it, and then I’m also probably not the best teammate or husband during those moments because I get frustrated a lot easier. During that moment of transition and I think it was Dr Terry Lyles book. It’s called Navigating Through Lifestorms the secret to navigate through life storms. I remember reading through that and he was talking about how, specifically like special forces they might, they look at things differently, like more like um, evolutions and transitions, you know, and I was like man, how do I look at that? And then when I was forced into that long time by myself in that transition I had to I had felt like I was at a decision point at that moment was like, hey, do I want to just put myself through this and just try to speed through it, even though I really can’t in this moment because we’re going through a pandemic and just a lot of things. Or do I want to sit in it for a moment, look at myself and be like what can I learn from this experience? Because you know, when you constantly say I can’t wait till Saturday, like some of those people that live through the week to get to the weekend, you know and when you say I can’t wait till Friday, I can’t wait till Friday, it’s like Monday morning at 7am. You’re like man, I can’t wait till Friday, you know. I don’t know about everybody else, but I feel like I probably could reflect back and realize that there was many learning opportunities and opportunities for me to impact people positively Monday through Friday that I just kind of skirted through. You know the efforts that I probably put in during that time. All right, so if I saw that as a transition, I wasn’t deliberate about being impactful and embracing those moments, I think that I would be losing out and I wouldn’t be doing justice to others by living on this planet, you know. So I really took the time. You know I said the advice I would give people is hey, when you find yourself in that moment, take a deep breath and pause and realize that it’s happening. You know, think about it, like I’m having a lot of anxiety, we’re having a lot of transitions going on, and these transitions don’t have to be huge, like you’re moving somewhere. There’s a lot of things, a lot of different transitions that we go through and then really just reframe it and be like, hey, what can I learn from this? What’s the purpose of this pain that I’m experiencing right now? Or what is the purpose? You know, man, what is this? What can I get out of this? To be better on the other side of this. And I think when you reframe it that way, I think that you can manage some of that piece a little bit more. You know, be a better steward of your piece, and also you can hopefully gain from it when you get to the other side.

Jon Mayo: 1:23:19
Yeah, that’s beautiful, because the idea that pain is a teacher if you learn to amock it secrets right by asking that question, is really cool. And something that’s been coming up a lot recently is when you’re working, you’re living right, like you’re the same person when you’re at work and you’re working for all those hours that you are at home and you’re living in both those situations. But are you? And there’s this idea presented on Instagram, of all places the other day, and it’s really stuck with me and it’s real short there’s no separation between work and life, it’s just you, it’s just life, right, which is another way to say when you’re working or living, so are you. And those come to mind as I was listening to your response on how you navigate the torture of the tension, the tension of the transition. That’s what that was the catchy way I was thinking about it, and you know yesterday, so right now, I’m in a really interesting series of life situations, life events with provision and pursuit of. How do you create provision and things like that from transitions that occurred before you and I last spoke and that we kind of touched on. And I’m still navigating, and for myself, after significant analysis and prayer and meditation, about a week and a half ago I realized, okay, the ULA is absolutely phenomenal multifaceted pursuit that’s going to create immense value in the world. But I can no longer fairly constrain it to the timelines and requirements that I have as an individual, because it is very much so going to be a longer build to be what it truly is. And I’m now starting at this point, like with that analysis, I realized I’m now starting to get in the way because I’m trying to force it to create things now that it’s not ready to create. But what it will create, when given the appropriate time, is so many multiples above what I can even imagine that I need to get out of my own way and allow this to grow appropriately. And so I shifted gears and I’m running a contingency. But then I’m also building a consulting firm called Iron Front Solutions and as part of building that, I am writing a methodology to help organizations transform aspirations into clear, data-driven, actionable visions that they can pursue and accomplish so aspirations to actualization, and it’s called the strive framework and that’ll be really fun to explore over time as well. But in writing that framework and just taking all the research lessons learned from the past decade plus of leadership throughout different industries and all of those things and creating it. I was rushing because I have a very aggressive launch date in mind, right, so that I can begin to serve and create value and provide. And I was like, okay, I’m creating this framework to be part of the primary offering of our in-front solutions and I know all these things need done so that I can launch aggressively. And as I’m writing it, I’m eight hours in, I’m about 15% in to do it the correct way, and I’m feeling the constant angst of time, the feeling of time running out on numerous levels, provision all these things. And I realized in my mind that is the enemy attacking and distracting from the work that needed done. And when I had the moment of awareness, that was like wait, why am I rushing this? Right, it goes to like you were talking about once you’ve realized that, you can ask what, what can I learn from this pain? But the as soon as we have that flash of like, oh, wait, what’s happening here? Right, and we kind of wake up for a minute, I was like wait, why am I rushing this? It’s like, well, because I’m I need to do a BCD. I, these things are my concern. Everything else is like okay, but is that the correct response? Because some things you just have to attack with aggression and urgency, and some things you have to attack with aggression, urgency and patience as well. And which one is this? And I was like this is a patient’s one, I must do this. Well, I cannot rush this one. I can do it aggressively, I can do it with urgency, but I can’t rush it. I have to allow it to take the time necessary to do it correctly and immediately. I switched the language in my mind. Well, I made that’s not fair. I made the decision with that inner dialogue yesterday afternoon no, this isn’t hard. No, this isn’t painful. This is a joy to get to have the opportunity to pursue it. And in switching that, I and like in relinquishing the false sense of entitled control, that I had any control over the outcome anyways I was able to put myself back into the decision of how can I best apply myself now to the creation of this thing that has the intent and hope of creating immense value and serving many other people, and how can I be the best conduit for that value creation now, in this moment. And it’s like, okay, it’s letting off the angst, it’s cultivating the peace and it’s becoming more present in the creation. And I’m going to really remember what I’m saying right now repeatedly. I’m going to keep drawing in myself back to him as I’m working, in my tendencies to become impatient. Come back up. I’m going back. No, be a better conduit, do the better work, and that works in creating something. But I also think it ties to the creating of oneself. If you realize I could be this, this is the standard I want to be, but I’m way down here. There’s so much pain and tension in seeing the gap that it can become almost unbearable. But there’s also a joy to saying that I’m in the process. I’m going through the process and there’s something sweet to be being in this trajectory and living in this way that what if I can? What if I relinquish control such that I can trust myself to the experience, given my intentionality, and see what happens and does that produce freedom and peace now, instead of relegating it to the future?

Joe Bogdan: 1:29:28
That’s amazing, yeah, which you just said that spurred so many thoughts. You ever they called a lucidity trap, like you know. But like when one great power and another power is rising up, that inevitably those usually go to war, and it was talking about, I think, athens and Sparta back in the day, and they’re doing a lot of relations relating that to China and us. Now, you know, like there’s this gap, that’s a rising power, so it could be inevitable going to war and this and that, but discussion on that. But you know, when you think about it, it’s like this is where I can be and I’m rising up there. I mean it’s almost like that trap, that gap is there within ourselves and it creates this almost like a war within ourselves, you know. So it really makes me think through that. But your your idea that you know, I think that people get caught up in this idea that, hey, I’m patient, that means I won’t have a bias for action, and I think those two things aren’t mutually exclusive, right, I mean, they’re like I can be patient but still doing stuff, right, and part of that doing is learning and maybe to working on myself while I have to wait through this process. You know, it doesn’t mean you’re not doing anything. And I think there’s also this, this like I don’t know if it’s like a just a fine line, I guess, between when do you send it versus how is it ready to be sent. You know, I mean because we could work on something until we refine every little thing to the point where it’s like one a minuscule, like point point 0.000% better if we spend months tweaking it versus we really got to let it bake a little bit more. You know what I mean To get to where it needs to be. And that’s the part. You know. We talked about discernment before. You know that that’s what I think is important as a skill that we need to develop, is that discernment and that because, yeah, I could sit there and tweak something forever, I’ll get a, I’ll get paralysis to analysis. You know, I mean I’ll sit there and just lie. You got to mess with it a little bit more. But then other times I’m thinking is like you know your deadline that you talked about, that you’re getting angst moving towards. That’s like dinner time and you’re in your smoke and a brisket for you know, and it has in its stalled. You know what I mean. And now you’re trying to rush it and now you served them a terrible meal, you know me, because they were hungry. But you’re like, no, you got to wait. You know like, yeah, that one’s, that one’s tough, and I think you have to work through it and then, once again, you have to prioritize what’s most important at those moments as well. But while you’re sitting through that time, you know these things that are vitally important to us, like what you’re working on. I think that we definitely do owe those things the diligence to, to give it time to cook all the way through, right. But then we have to make sure we get to a point where we’re like, hey, it’s time to send it. Now. I’ve been tweaking this a little bit too long, or I’ve been working on a little bit too long, and that’s the time maybe we need some help to. Someone pointed out like how long are you going to work on that before you send it?

Jon Mayo: 1:32:16
Absolutely. I think that’s. I fully agree with that sentiment and, like, right now, I’m just building like what I would call the 85% foundation. That is definitively good enough to send it, fully understanding that there will be an iterative approach and versions to enhance it, right from learnings and application, which, like that, that’s how I’m balancing. Like the creation of the strive framework specifically, right, it’s like, okay, I can create an 80% solution that’s going to work, it’s going to produce value, but I’d be a fool not to enhance it when it is improved and I get feedback from rural data. Right, so it’s like, okay, strive a year after it begins being applied across different organizations is going to be better than upfront. Right, just by reality. And sending it at 80% means it’ll be 95% if I do that iterative growth process. So I agree with that sentiment a lot. And the thing I think about, right, is like one and I don’t know how to alleviate the pain of the tension. Right, there’s beauty of the 10, there’s beauty in the tension between two truths, right, so we’re talking about a lot of things like just send it versus letting it develop properly, right? I think that if, instead of trying to avoid the tension of the transition that we keep talking about. If we choose to embrace it and reframe it, then we can make it palatable and allow ourselves to dance in the gray between those two things. And I think that the more areas in our lives that we can place ourselves in the tension between two beautiful truths and allow them to pull on us as we strive forward to create value and and lead a maximized life, the greater the potential impact of that which we’re doing, both for ourselves and our communities. Because when you’re standing in the tension between two beautiful truths, right like sense of urgency and time to properly develop, and you’re allowing yourself to bear up under the weight of that responsibility, you are choosing of your own free will to stand in the gap to allow something to come to existence that may very well equip and empower others to do the same, but not without cost. So perhaps then it’s okay to say no, there’s beauty in this, because, as you know, there’s that saying if you stare into the abyss, they best will stir back that there’s a positive beauty if, if I allow myself to bear up under the weight of this tension and responsibility, then the work that I, that which I’m creating, will also create me, and in that duality I may also be able to call others forward and equip them to lead better lives, because of my willingness to put myself through this as well.

Joe Bogdan: 1:35:09
Yeah, I mean what you just described to me is like identifying that there’s a victory to be had there and that patience and that in that, in that gap that you talked about, you know there’s a victory be had there. We just got to notice that it’s there. You could, you could totally just once again try to speed through things. You can. You can put something out that’s half big just to get it over with, to say that you did something, stamp your name on it, say it’s done. You know, no, if you’d chalk a little line that says yep, victory, one win there, you know. But I mean there’s multiple victories in this process and one of them is just beating yourself into realizing that that you know it’s okay to let these things cook through and make sure it’s the best product possible, you know. And and that’s that’s another thing I think that that this conversation brings to mind for me is that much like what I said, you know, don’t just keep on saying I can’t wait till Friday, don’t, don’t just look at this thing and be like I can’t wait to get this done or get this produced or whatever. Like what are the victories and process on the way there, through the ups and downs and the valleys and the mountain tops. What are those victories that you can have? And all of them are going to feel good, you know. I mean when, after I run a full marathon, I’m not feeling great like, but there’s multiple victories on the way there. After end of it I’m feeling great, but on the way there there’s multiple victories. I just finished mile 16, and I’m not cramping up, you know like there’s plenty of opportunities. You might be feeling some pain or nose ties, but there’s victories to be had, like you said about the milestones and to get to that horizon. But I think that when you navigate through life with that mindset, once again, you’re going to be a better steward of your piece and you’re going to end up on the other side of whatever that is, whether that success or a perceived failure. You know you don’t get that thing accomplished. Whatever that is, you’re still going to be better than you were before you went on that endeavor.

Jon Mayo: 1:37:01
All right, and that is the show. Thank you so much for listening. If you found value in today’s episode, please pay it forward. You can do that by liking and following the show, liking and following us on social media or sharing this episode with someone you care about. All of these things help more than I can put into words, and each action taken to help us spread the word is greatly appreciated. So, once again, from all of us here at the ULA and Be Relentless podcast, thank you for joining us in the journey as we seek to lead maximized lives.