Brandon Seifert: 0:00
I just realized I’d have not popped a CC, though, and that might be necessary. So I think I think we’re okay, but, dude, grab it grab it and let’s go.

Jon Mayo: 0:09
Don’t suck on it today. Don’t dip it. You need a like. No main line, right yeah?

Brandon Seifert: 0:14
insert it.

Jon Mayo: 0:15
Yeah, yeah, hey. Do the Trinity right For those who don’t know the Trinity you chew one, you dip one and you insert one. Use your imagination, but it allows maximum absorption and one heck of a boost. I do not actually advocate this form of consumption outside of the form of gesting. Wow. Well, hello everyone and welcome to another thought expedition on the Be Relentless podcast. Today, we explore the meaning of life, simply put, and how can we create significance in that which we do. It was a wild ride from start to finish, and a beautiful idea to help us prepare for this conversation is the quote there’s no separation between work and life. It’s just you, it’s just life. In addition to listening to today’s show, if this has impact, please rate it and share it with someone who you think would benefit from a conversation. Additionally, use the code be relentless at checkout to help support the show and to save 10% off site wide. That’s forge forward.

Brandon Seifert: 1:56
Yeah, so today, I actually want to start it with two quotes. It’s a lot today. One is a is one of my favorite quotes by Carl Jung, but I actually took a little bit of what’s before it, just a little bit more depth of it, and it says the events that happen are always the same, but the creative depths of man are not always the same. Events signify nothing. They signify only in us. We create the meaning of events. The meaning is, and always was, artificial. We make it, like I said. That’s from Carl Jung In the red book, and then another one by Mark Twain, is the two most important days in your life, or the day you’re born and the day you found out what or find out why. So I’m just going to let you sit and think about this for a second or two. But the main purpose of this me bringing those up is the idea of the idea of the meaning in your life. You actually just recently sent me a message. Basically, the gist of it was the idea that you realize that you were passionate and your meaning are aligned At least that’s what I got out of it To the point where you’re just trying to get the idea of the meaning, of the meaning at the point where you’re living your life to the fullest in every aspect that you can. You know your time with you, know your, your bride and kids, your living when you’re working, your living when you’re working out your living. I feel like a lot of people don’t have that, including myself yet. And to quickly define what I mean by both passion and meaning Passion is a you know, definitely that fire. It’s that magnetic pull towards an activity, an idea, something that you love, that you decide to invest time into and energy into. And what I mean by meaning is A deeper sense of purpose. It’s like the bigger picture in your life that gives context to everything that you’re working towards. So I don’t know if you want to quickly elaborate on either of those, or you know me bringing that up from your message.

Jon Mayo: 4:46
I love what you did this morning because it’s quite a puzzle, right You’re. You gave me a lot to respond to and engage in with you in this exploration, so I’m already jazzed because, like, okay, a quote, ooh, a second. And then, oh yeah, you threw in that message with what you perceived from it, which definitely needs to be defined, at least from my perspective, to to ensure that I think I think there’s value there. Yeah, what’s exciting about this is they are connected. They are connected by this idea of meaning, all three elements, right, and I’d send you a message. Let’s start there, because the quotes you shared are fairly straightforward, right, but they, they will color our conversation, certainly. So the message I sent you is really, we’ve started exchanging ideas more heavily throughout the week to help us prepare for these conversations, right, kind of sink and exchanging of ideas, creating that creative space. And I was, I have been meditating. I’m often frustrated or feel isolated Generally in life, and that’s because, for better or for worse, I have a standard that I exacted myself that is unyielding, and that standard has made my life better month over month, year over year. Unequivocally, my life has been better, sweeter, more joy filled, more peace filled, more beautiful. But having that standard oftentimes makes me feel alone because in a lot of the collaborative endeavors I’m working on, it just it can feel lonely, especially if I start to become unbalanced or focused on the wrong things. I begin to become more frustrated with what may not be happening with those I’ve been in partnership with or walking with, as opposed to what is, and being grateful that I even get to walk with these people in these capacities, right and like, simply on like workload, balancing, prioritization, communication, what stresses different people out all those elements right, and in oftentimes I just have wrestled with that and one of the things I also wrestle with is like, is there something wrong with me? And that’s where that message really was me working to articulate. I don’t think it’s worth quoting the message here, but the intent of that message when I wrote it I shared it with the forge and then I shared it with you and it was me processing and articulating the permission that just because everyone else I know and observe is different, does not mean that I’m wrong or broken in the expression of my own life and that the drive and pursuit of how I live is okay for me. And it was just kind of like I mentioned before, I gave myself permission to walk with joy and freedom in the fact that I love having an initiative, an initiative rolling, 10 initiatives at one time, a plate on each finger that I’m keeping spinning. I love working hard on a primary goal and objective, that I work to coordinate all 10 of those initiatives, each of those initiatives being led by other teams or individuals, and that I’m happiest when I have all 10 fingers spinning plates and that from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed, I get to enjoy the dance of that and that I don’t care much about pursuing other leisure activities because this is both my work and my play in my life. And that whole thing stemmed from the quote, that which I can reference here in a few seconds, but the whole thing stemmed from a quote that there’s no separation between work and life. It’s just you, it’s just life, right. And from that seed I realized I’m free, if I give myself permission, to accept that I truly have created work that is recreational, joy-filled, passion-filled and that I can relentlessly pursue. So that message was truly me giving myself freedom to do that, and also I was encouraging myself to be more grace-filled and grateful for those I’m walking community with, who are doing whatever they’re doing right Along this path. So I don’t think in my mind it was much messier and definitely like a distinct work in progress, but step forward, articulation of what I’m thinking and feeling and believing, more so than kind of like it’s well-packaged and done right, like I think that it’s a working draft, a living draft of the ongoing expression of life. And that was a fairly in-depth response there. But I do think it’s important, especially as we lean into exploring the two quotes you shared, because they’re both one saying like okay, yeah, you’re born, you have the gift of life. That’s beautiful Mark Twain’s quote, right. And then you gain the gift of realizing how to invest those precious moments instead of waste them. And that purpose, that significance that you get to pursue then has the ability to color and flavor the rest of your existence and imbue it with meaning and enhance the value that you perceive from it. And that is a gift, right. That’s kind of Mark Twain’s quote. And then Carl Jung I think is really a warning, because if we create the meaning of our events, then the output of our life and how we interact with it is on us, right, because we’ve written the definitions and of course, that may be influenced. But we have an eraser as well as a pen and we can alter or adjust or rewrite how we perceive things over time, such that it changes how we interact with life, what our emotional responses are, all of those things. And it reminds me, like I think, a third quote we’ve talked about before that ties all of these thoughts together kind of well is the Jack London’s thought loosely this, I remember it. But you can’t sit around and wait for inspiration to find you. You have to light after it with a club. And what’s light after it with a club? It’s kind of a little bit of a older speech. Well, light after it with a club means you have to pursue it, hunt it down and beat it into submission so that you may then maintain it and walk with it or have it right. You have to hunt and kill, pursue and capture. Enter your verbs here purpose and even as you define passion and meaning, right Meaning, purpose, bigger picture, context for life, significance, right. Let us pursue significance. And well, why would we pursue that right and why would it give us passion? Because it gives us life. So I think that if we take all these ideas. There’s some level of a centrality to saying the world is not gonna give you a purpose, but if you pursue it, you can discover it for yourself, and in pursuing it, you begin to identify that which makes your heartbeat stronger and that colors your life, and it may. It doesn’t matter what it matters to others. If it sweetens the experience that you have in this life, then your time is better spent, and that will create more value for the community you walk with, and the world will improve for it. So it matters, if nothing more, to you in this time, and what matters more than that, given that we know of nothing else definitively. So we get to define, create and evolve not only the meaning of events but of our lives, and the message we talked about earlier was an expression of me walking in that, learning to. And what a gift is that, though, for us? You know Right.

Brandon Seifert: 14:08
So how did you begin to walk in this? Let me be clear with that. You already knew that passion and purpose, like you were already walking in it. But was it the fear of failure, Like what, what? Or is it the social, cultural kind of norms that have provided that struggle over time? I’m assuming this has been a long time where you’ve been struggling with these ideas and finding that piece. What were you struggling with or what caused that, and then also what led you towards that message and that realization. And I understand that you are not. You haven’t arrived. This is gonna be an ongoing practice, probably hopefully for the rest of your life, that you’re gonna continuously reevaluate. But where does that stem?

Jon Mayo: 15:15
Yeah, I think that there’s only two ways that this type of adventure can stop, and that’s either a physical death or a intellectual, spiritual death, because there’s no way whatsoever that, once you become a way, can choose to take action on these types of realizations, that you can turn off the switch without some form of depravity or loss. So, yeah, I agree with the sentiment that and my hope is that I never lose my way in such a manner that it’s an intellectual or spiritual death, but that this continues until my body gives out. That being said, I had no idea what my purpose was, and I also think that this is very important distinction as we dive into this. I think that my purpose insert every individual here, the universal. What is an individual’s purpose? Right, ought to remain a working draft, a hypothesis that continues to evolve and adapt over time. In the book A More Beautiful Question, it lays out the whole premise of pursuing a more beautiful question, how one question is a string to the next until you find something that’s so beautiful that you can spend your life pursuing that question. And right now, my working draft is a string to the next. And my working draft is how might I unleash human potential? And that represents for me. How do I become the best possible version of myself possible? So I’m not disgusted by that which I see in the mirror, but grateful to be living this life and so that my wife receives the best bride, I mean, my bride can receive the best husband possible, my sons can receive the best father, and so on and so on. Right, and that is manifesting itself in many ways and what that means and the supporting elements to it continue to become better informed and evolve over time. And framing it as a hypothesis frees me to be aggressive with the pen and the eraser, or the pencil and the eraser, with both the scalpel to remove and the ability to add. So I’ve realized the surgery metaphor was not as helpful, because it’s hard to just add things to a body, but you know it’s so with that like context of freedom and ongoing adaptation for myself, two, two critically important things and the stance start as cool as it seems. Now, right, it wasn’t the pursuit of purpose, it wasn’t the pursuit of these things, it was realizing that I was destroying that which I was responsible for, and starting with myself and frankly, for myself, my faith had a huge element to do with it, because what woke me up to what I was doing was my kiddo having nightmares every night. Because I was feeling to cultivate the deep, unsaid spiritual level of peace that would allow my family to rest Right and like you can feel it. When you walk into an environment, regardless of what your worldview is, you, you you’ll either feel that rest right, more comfortable, you may feel more anxious and you may not in like the whole spectrum in between. You may not know what is causing that difference because you can’t identify it right. The room could be the same. But one day you walk in and it’s comforting, and the next day you walk in and it’s not right. That’s what I’m talking about here. And though things were superficially good, I’d say and I’m not sure that anyone else, really, I’m not sure how much it would be articulated elsewhere that that comfort, that security, that peace was lacking and my wife was trying to stand in the gap to create that. But how could she fully carry that weight if I’m, if I’ve abdicated that responsibility Right? So for me the trigger came in when, after nights of this, my kiddo was having these really, really dark nightmares and I was not walking in faith, right In my, in my faith system and belief system. I had been challenging it and rebelling against it and I finally decided to pray. I was like why the heck is this happening? I don’t want this. If there’s an issue, bring it to me. And you know, I was like what is going on here? And I just, and I prayed and I found out. You know, for me it was crystal clear that I was messed up. So this whole journey, for me, began as how do I, frankly, fix myself, unfuck myself such that my family, one such that I can? The motivation was so that my family can have that safety, that security, that peace to thrive and grow and evolve, and to so that I could look in the mirror after that realization and not be disgusted and hateful and instead begin to see the value and that. That’s what initiated this journey and over time I’ve evolved. But I would say all of that has stemmed from how my faith has evolved, and typically I’ve not been this outspoken on it. And that’s because for years I’ve been working on what does one even do with this? Because it’s done so poorly all the time, and the best working draft I have on the, on the, on the faith element, is I don’t. I don’t have the desire to convince and control people to experience things or agree with what I believe. But for myself, for my life, I will speak and share what’s affecting who I am, because otherwise it’d be disingenuous and hiding the most critical element of what’s driving all the work I’m doing in my life and my community, with this podcast, with the ULA universe, with everything. And you know, faith is the belief in that which is unseen or unprovable but can be experienced right, and that’s why it’s faith and not known. And in my mind, when you for myself, by choosing to believe in God and submit myself to something greater than myself, I receive not a crutch but a catalyst to evolve in much more than just that catalyst, I receive a looking glass, a mirror that highlights all the bullshit in such a fashion that I can’t hide it for myself anymore. And the gift of those two things is, like, truly remarkable, because without it, lindsay and I would probably be divorced. I don’t know where I’d be with my kids. I don’t know if I would frankly be alive because of how I was living. So it was the gift of freedom and I’m learning to walk in better unity in that and I’m learning to walk. I’m learning to live, how to authentically represent that in a fashion that is at least true to me. Right, I can’t control how others respond to it, but I can control my response and how I express my life, especially as we export more heavily over time. Right, there’s different avenues that are doing this and different elements of community where, if I’m not authentic in this, then I’m becoming the lie, right? So, after a few years of being very careful because I’ve taken it very seriously to share what I’ve shared today, even because, like, if I don’t do this well, then I’m just another reason to scoff right, and perhaps I still am. But my goal is to be as authentic, genuine and strong as possible in living this life in alignment with the ideals that I pursue. And that’s where I think that it’s critical for us holistically to understand what we believe in, because everybody believes in something. You’re either choosing to believe in nothing you’re believing in or you’re choosing which is something right. So, from nothing to God, you’re choosing to believe in something, and knowing what that is deeply paints how you walk through this life and the meaning that you describe to it and the purpose and significance that you pursue. So, given the topic. It’s an oddly timed opportunity for me, from my perspective, to speak of such things, because they’re critical, and to be called forth beyond oneself is also a gift, because none of this would be happening otherwise. Right, and what a cool experience it is to walk in that, and you and I have worked together for quite a while now and we’ve touched on these topics, and one of the gifts to me is like if you live your life as an invitation, how cool is that? Like if you live your life as an invitation to love unity, strength and the opportunity to create value and pursue significance together and separately right, just those things. How cool is that? Because it’s not trying to force some narrative, it’s not trying to force something, but it’s an honest representation of experiencing, writing, creating those things for oneself, as well as identifying and exploring what’s making it work for me. And this is definitely a deep exploration, but that’s, I think, the best I can articulate it with in a single go, without some scathing questions and deep diving with you. But, yeah, what do you think about all that bud?

Brandon Seifert: 26:13
Holy shit, that was a lot Okay. So yeah, you’re gonna say, well, I think, if you don’t wanna gamer that whole time. First off, thank you for redefining, restating the message and also taking the time to go in depth with it, which I was actually not expecting at all, but a couple of things that did really catch my ear through. That was the idea of living life with a rough draft. With that hypothesis, instead of putting a period on the end of sentences, really allows you to open up and have a very have that radical curiosity, just like Noble was saying in I think that was episode 56. A lot of that ties into what you were just talking about. I don’t want to go too far down the religion side of things, but I think it is definitely important for someone to think about and if anyone ever does want us to go through that topic in the sense of because you and I both have walked away from what we’ve believed in previously and returned in some form or fashion through just self-exploration, like I said, I don’t think I want to talk about that too far into this, so I commend you for doing so.

Jon Mayo: 27:58
One thing I do want to comment on. There is, I think, that there’s a distinction between faith and religion and belief in religion and action and religion. So I would just separate, without the proper time and space to appropriately address those terms and what those terms represent societally, and I can’t say individually, but what those terms represent at least societally and at least individually to myself. I would put that caveat that I see those terms as hugely significant. And where I left, where I agree, I walked away from religion a long time ago, I returned to faith and for myself right, and I’m comfortable believing that idea at that for today, but perhaps that’s an exploration for another day. But that distinction must be made, at least from my perspective. I agree.

Brandon Seifert: 29:04
We’ve had a couple of conversations about that and so slip of the tongue, but I do agree and I know we’re heading towards with that. So thank you for that correction, because it would be doing a disservice to what you just said if we left it with how I was about to you. So thank you. But getting back to it, like I said, living life on a rough draft, I think a lot of people, including myself, tend to just put a period on the end of sentences about who they are, what they are experiencing, what they’ve gone through, how they perceive the world, and that could be I’m poor, I’m not smart, I’m fat, I’m blah, blah, blah. There’s a lot of negative context where we just put a period on it instead of deciding what if? What if I decided to change that? But what if I decided to wake up at four o’clock and record podcasts and build towards something better? And so I think and I could be wrong and I want your opinion on this but I think people, including myself, because this is something that I’m currently walking through we need to start asking more introspective questions, like and I would encourage anyone listening to this to ask themselves these questions too, but like, I wrote one down and it says like when do I feel most alive or fulfilled? I know for me, just thinking on that, I feel most fulfilled when I’m having deep conversations with people on values, on direction of life, getting both their perspective on it so I can alter and change mine or potentially open someone else’s eyes to my opinion, and just getting someone to think on it, because there’s just a joy that I get in life when I get someone to think about what. If? Another question I wrote down in that was do my current actions align with what truly excites or moves me? That’s a great question. My personal answer for those, and maybe it’s worth also asking you those questions. But my answer for that one is both no and yes. I’ve stopped seeking growth for myself. So that’s no and I need to change that. But I also accept that, yes, I have pushed into working towards building this, this foundation that I can use to get people to start asking those questions, to start waking up and questioning. Is there something that I should be doing that I know I, that I know I should be doing, but I refuse to do and I could be asking questions or just actually doing an action to put myself more in line with what I’m seeking in my life. So throwing that back at you actually, just because I answered them, what do you do that makes you feel most alive or fulfilled, and I understand that’s putting you on the hot seat that needs to chewed on.

Jon Mayo: 32:46
Yeah, absolutely. And let’s jump into it with a bit more energy than the plotting I did through the last couple questions, right, I love the energy of it. Where the heck else am I going to at five in the morning? Do a conversation like this Right? One of the beautiful things to what you said a minute ago. Like, am I growing? No, well, congratulations. If this conversation isn’t in some capacity hoping you grow, I don’t know what will, because it’s definitely pushing me to grow and I get it there’s. I’m not critiquing your evaluation of, holistically, what you’re going to tolerate in response to that question, right, and I’d encourage that. If you feel there’s more to be done, of course to do it. But just to be a little bit amusing, like, it’s 541 in the morning right now and we’ve been deep diving into quite a few topics and that is thrilling, and it’s things like this that make me feel the most alive. No, naval is has been an emerging spout of wisdom that I became aware of when he went on the Joe Rogan experience and he talks about we don’t seek peace of mind, but we seek peace from mind, and I feel the most alive when the voices stop and I’m in the moment, right. That’s why this intentional living, present, all those things are so important. And one of the things in the message we’re alluding to earlier that I’m just reminded of is it was also an admonishment to myself that I needed to do a better job of being present in each moment and like not just like holistically, like OK, that’s cute, but no specifically it. What I struggle with is as I work, I can be distracted by needing to be like a better dad, a better husband, a better friend, right, and how I can do that. And then when I’m in those situations with my children or my wife or my friends, my mind’s thinking about the work. So it’s like son of a gun. And I was having dinner with the kid. No, we, I picked, the kid is up. Lindsay got back last night, so I picked the kids up from school and I had created a routine with them when we got home to have like an intentional snack before homework and touch point on how their days were going. And Eric’s become Eric’s one of my youngest, he’s one of the twins has become quite the little flashlight to help me identify things that I need to work on better. He’s been bringing a lot of awareness to me. He’s like Dad. Why is it? Why is it that you teach a lot more and share a lot more and talk a lot more with us when mom’s not here? I just want you to do the same thing when mom’s here versus not, and I was like I had no idea I did. Am I doing less when mom’s here? And he’s like yes, and like five minutes later he’s like that. I frankly don’t care if you do more or less when moms here are gone. I just want you to do the same period. And I’m sitting there like, oh my gosh, I’m getting schooled by my kid. But he’s right and gave me a lot to think about and I shared it with Lindsay and I’m going to lean into that Right and I’m going to figure out how to do better there. But that answers the question of what do I do that makes me feel the most alive? What may I engage in where all the noise fades away? And over the last couple of days, specifically with Lindsay gone, I’ve had the opportunity to really explore that in being present as a father, raising my sons and caring for them while she’s been gone, and that will will flavor today and onward, as I get to do that with my bride, so that’s an enhancement, right? This conversation. We are here, man, we are talking about things I’m lasered in. That gives me purpose and meaning. And the DULA and everything that’s happening there, the Forge Initiative, which we’re going to launch soon, so that’ll be fun to talk about here very, very soon. All of these elements give me meaning. So over the years, I continue to invest more heavily in the pursuits that encourage me to be all in in that moment, and I’m creating systems and community around myself that facilitates that. Because if we look at growth as, like, a nonlinear trajectory right, where, like if you think of a x, y access in a graph that’s going up and outward, like living the type of life you want is not a arrow shot up and out it. It, at best, is a series of thousands of Michael, my micro roller coaster loop, delos right. That is likely a wave that is trending up and down as it goes in the general trajectory that you’re creating with your life. So the goal, then, is not to make it an arrow, but to shrink the chaotic influx of the wave peaking and hitting the valley as you aim the trajectory higher and further out right, and at the same time. That’s done by focusing on those micro loop, micro loop deloops and making them as tight as possible so that the high of that micro loop and the low or closer together and therefore more consistent, and in that consistency there’s less manic, erratic emotional swing which creates peace from mind. Right and back to Neval. He presents some idea, which is beautiful, that there’s three things you cannot buy and can only be earned, and that is a strong body, a sound mind and a home filled with love and man. When you, when you take those things into context, it’s like everything you do can vote towards creating those three things or not and give peace from mind in that context, or rob it or rob it, and it is regardless of what you want it to be doing, because even how you respond to circumstances outside of your control can influence that and you control that response. So how do you, over time, shift who you are and how you respond in such a fashion that it allows for that meeting, that peace from mind and and mdews even the common things of the day with value, significance and purpose? Right, and one other thought I have not been able to shake since I started talking in response to your last question, so I will is part of this freedom that I’m currently walking into and exploring was born from listening to a conversation between Lex Friedman and Andy Dr Andrew Superman Andy like I know him, that’s funny Dr Andrew Superman and that they had on Lex Friedman’s birthday. It was one of the best conversations I’ve heard, not necessarily because of all the topics discussed, but it was two men who deeply loved each other, such that Andrew like platonically, friend wise loved. They actually clarified that they’re not an item, which was also hilarious, but two, two men who authentically loved each other it as as brothers and friends, such that Andrew traveled from his home all the way to Texas relax was for his birthday so that they could spend time together and they had this just like real conversation, and I deeply enjoyed it. But one of the things that was so fascinating to me is Dr Andrew Superman started sharing about his relationship with God, which was shocking and interesting and cool, and he did, I think, a beautiful job, giving an authentic articulation of what he’s wrestling with and one of the sentiments. There’s two reasons I’m sharing this. One of the sentiments he shared was the fear filled abdication of not fucking up what he was sharing. There’s no other word that better describes it. That’s why I use that word. It was intentional, not lazy. Like you could hear in his voice the trepidation of sharing it and what the implications of sharing it were, and he’s like for you. For the last couple years, this has been growing in me in my life and growing in significance in my life, and I’ve been terrified to share it because I don’t want to mess it up and I don’t know how to share it well and I don’t want to misrepresent what’s happening. This is what’s happening to me, right, and it’s now so much a part of me, or it’s so significant, that I feel like I need to at least be honest about it and express it, and I’m figuring out how to do that. That’s roughly the sentiment that he presented and that was so interesting. And then the other thing came is like, oh, I’ve been wrestling with the same dang thing, how interesting, right. And one of the things that he did with his one of his dear friends in front of the world, right, was have this incredibly vulnerable exploration expression of that with with his friend, who he was even, I would say, reticent to share it with, based on how his tone was right and the concern of what the whiplash may be for expressing that in a culture that for some reason treats all these things as as thing, as faith based beliefs, but colors them differently. So he’s afraid of ridicule and so he was. You could hear the apprehension, right, and the reason I share that is because I determined at that moment I’ve been very apprehensive in the conversations you’ve had, like the ones that you and I’ve had offline, and I was likely incredibly apprehensive right or at least I felt that way and in listening to Dr Huberman I realized that if I did it more publicly than with a buddy in a garage, I was going to do it intentionally, carefully, but with courage. No, I don’t, I don’t like that because that makes it seem like he didn’t have the courage to share. But I would do it boldly, right, not arrogantly, but I’ve just stayed it matter of factly as the hypothesis with which I’m working and experiencing, instead of apologetically, and hopefully that’s what’s come across today. But that is directly correlated to your question, because authentically representing that side of myself and walking into that this week, giving myself the freedom to be who I am despite that often making me feel alone, and then finding the beauty in the fact that I’m not alone and being grateful for that, engaging in conversations like this, being becoming a consistent striving to become a better father always, husband, man, friend, and learning to actually experience the moment and have peace from my mind instead of being captivated by the cycles that my mind can throw me into. Those things are what are making life so beautiful. And, instead of an activity, say, like there are many activities that I do now that help that, right, but that’s the whole point. I’m engineering my life so that, with the goal that everything I do does that right, that’s the goal and, yeah, that’s how I’m articulating it, right, and there were certainly things that helped catalyze that. Jujitsu helps catalyze that. You’re, I don’t think about much when I’m trying to survive, right, it’s such a dynamic thing. I’m in that moment, this conversations like that, I’m in this moment, right. So it’s like what are those things that, once again, just draw you into that moment, give you peace from your mind and the distractions and allow you to be fully present, because those are the things that give you life, or at least I believe that, give meaning and significance to life. So that’s what I have to say about that.

Brandon Seifert: 45:34
Okay, okay, okay. How, trying to think about how I actually even want to bring this up because there’s so many different touching points in that, but one. I got to listen to that episode now, thanks, and then to let’s include in the show notes to, if you don’t mind. Oh yeah, well, we’ll definitely do that. How does one through this evolution throughout your life and I almost let me let me start somewhere else real fast, just touching on this, because now I’m curious Do you think that it is worth discussing more in depth the journey through faith now, versus when it eventually does pop up when you’re as big, as Andrew was like during? his like like like, like, like if you were, if you were to hold off in and we, when we start blowing up, and because it’s going to happen, and I know that that’s just how it’s going to happen, just by the type of person that you are, matter of, when Would you prefer to have those conversations early on? Because I don’t think it’s necessary. Towards most things that we discuss, I really don’t. Yeah, I don’t minus the knowing that there’s that backdrop there. You know that, that background that influences you to some extent, but overall, the overarching theme for you is not espousing that as a you know that that wisdom or that that conversation it’s, it’s how, how you’ve taken everything and molded it into the person that is John.

Jon Mayo: 47:45
Yeah, I said, I do not have the desire to make this a central topic. You asked me a question that I could not honestly and genuinely, nor properly, answer without touching that topic, and that’s the distinction. So I don’t have the desire to say OK, let’s have the next three conversations, unpack these topics if the question is presented to me. I’ve developed the courage one to be wrong, and that’s critical, and then two to be honest. So, so with that, oh, and just because I can’t walk past it, but thanks for the huge vote of code Whoa, I just had a stroke. Thank you for the huge vote of confidence in the work that we’re doing Right. So that’s exciting. I don’t know it to be true, but I do believe in investing every element of my life for that to be true, because I want to continue, because I will not stop learning to love better Right, and because we won’t stop this if it stays like this forever, I’m OK with that, but I don’t think it will Right, and I don’t plan on it either. So, but, but I’m also not rushing it becoming something more than it is, because what is more beautiful than what we’re doing Right, but yeah, so, no, I don’t have a desire. No, it’s not the central theme of conversation I want to have. I want to live my life as an invitation to live a more beautiful life. You know, from the outward, outside perspective, and on the inside perspective, I want to live my life in a way that makes life more beautiful. So those things are together and that manifests itself in many ways and many pursuits and in many different activities. And the difference between now and in the path to now is, like I mentioned before, and I can’t and I can’t overstate this one. I’ve gained the courage to be wrong, and gaining the courage to be wrong and own that and and being comfortable doing that has provided me the courage to be honest with myself first and then with the world, right. So, based on that, if and I won’t do this game because it’s becoming a little redundant, but if you were to ask me, or if one of our community members wanted to know, or if at some point it became a topic of discussion, because it naturally manifested itself, right, because other people are curious and that’s what’s brought forward I will unflinchingly explore to the best of the capacities that I have, as limited as they may be. But no, it’s not. It’s not a topic that I have a desire nor an agenda to say OK, let’s focus our efforts on this, unless it organically occurs, perfect.

Brandon Seifert: 50:51
And that’s kind of where I thought you were going to go with that, but I there was that that question just kind of bubbling in the background, so I wanted to just address it. Of course, and also You’re a humble man, I am not so humble If you do find value in this podcast, please rate this podcast on whatever streaming platform that you’re listening to on. It’ll definitely help us. Shameless plug, I love it, I think. My last question, just because we’re we’re going a little long and I absolutely love it. It’s something that I sense you I missed, let me. Let me think about actually talking for a moment and not just rambling. Since you sent that message Tuesday, I’ve been kind of wrestling with this Question and it’s can you find purpose in your life without passion? And if I need to explain why I’m not talking about that, I can.

Jon Mayo: 52:03
I don’t think so and frankly I think this is a fairly short response to unpack, at least from what immediately is coming to mind from my, from my own life. I did not lead with passion. Passion was a gift that came later and what I led with was the cultivation of discipline. I wanted to believe myself. The first path to like one of the path, one of the first steps to to healing and not hating myself, was to realize that if I told myself I’d do something, I would, and if I wouldn’t do something, I wouldn’t. It’s interesting to trust my own word, right. So there was no passion there, there’s pain. And yeah, I worked, I floundered and thrashed in the dark until I realized that if I pursued the cultivation of discipline every day, that it would, it would create something that I may not understand but would allow for the gift of passion to perhaps begin to do that which I do right. So I think, and that’s what I advocate even in the in my book, right, the, the waymaker formula is live intentionally, create discipline, cultivate, see, see and do that consistently and over time It’ll create progress and that progress will cultivate this waymaker mentality and ethos and transform one into such a thing, such that their life becomes beautiful, or really, a better statement would be such that they wake up to the beauty that is their life and this opportunity. So the bottom line at the end, the black right is no, I don’t think you have to have that passion to pursue purpose, though passion can be an indicator that helps you get on the right path right or find the activities that help that. If none of that is apparent and it just seems dark, I think that personal contracts with the self, that force, incremental progress over time and then committing oneself to that process so that over the course of a year or two you can reap the rewards of that effort, will produce. Will produce passion, if it’s not existing, and progress the quality of life right. So I think it can start with the discipline, the, the cultivation of discipline.

Brandon Seifert: 55:05
I agree. I thought of another question.

Jon Mayo: 55:10
Okay.

Brandon Seifert: 55:11
So hopefully this is the last one. But how does one overcome the avoidance of that passion, that purpose, that meaning in their life? And that’s through fear, through societal norms, for example. For me it’s for fear. What if I fail? What if I can’t meet the expectations? Or what if other people would? What if I’m responsible for those that depend on me when I get to where I would like to be? The fear of opening up and loving something again and having passion for something to either not be able to obtain it or to not be able to keep it.

Jon Mayo: 56:04
Okay, one public service announcement in line with everything that we’ve talked about today. I have grown very frustrated with qualifying speech. Right, there’s a lot of people who qualify a lot of their speech with and this is a qualification, but I intend on it being the last one but there’s a lot of qualif like oh, this is what I think and it may not be for everyone, and blah, blah, blah. And sometimes that is important when you’re dealing with certain topics to ensure that it’s properly packaged, right. But it also becomes like a verbal tick, like an um or an ah. And for myself, I’m going to speak what I think with authority, because I’ve given myself the freedom to be wrong and if I am wrong, I’ll own it, and that is what I. How I’d respond to your question, right? How do you overcome the fear here? Can you choose to give yourself the gift of being wrong, of it being okay if you’re wrong? Because if you choose, if you determine to say to yourself and choose for yourself, it’s okay if I’m wrong, because I can correct what I’m doing and I can in, uh, I can adapt what I’m doing Once I’ve learned I’m wrong, and then I can proceed right. If you give yourself that gift if the universal you just says, okay, I’m okay being wrong here, so that gives me the freedom to do this or to say this to the best of my ability and then as I learn what’s helpful, what’s true, what’s right, I can lean into that and then when I learn where I’m wrong, I can own that and respond accordingly, and it can be big and small. I’ve really been intentional with sharing a lot more thoughts with my bride over the last couple of days via text. I’ve realized I’ve created communities in which I’m constantly thinking and articulating my thought and in with the desire of pursuing and strengthening and deepening my marriage, I’ve been thinking about how do I continue to pursue my bride, how do I continue to be a more attractive mate, not physically as well, but holistically right, like a lot of people stop trying once they’re married. We’re 10 years in and I’m like how the heck can I be better than any any moment, more attractive, a better mate, a better find whatever the term may be right a better partner than any other time since we’ve met right? And all that comes into this freedom of being wrong, because, as I’m pursuing these different ways and those are other thought expeditions certainly but as I’m pursuing ways to strengthen our relationship and develop it and allow it to become more multifaceted and all these things, I’m opening myself up to being wrong. And she and I and I got feedback. I okay, the last lately, you’ve become more and more distracted on your phone as we’re talking. You’re becoming less and less present, which is which is all part of this growth and freedom of this week that we’ve been talking about. I realized I was doing it more and more, especially since I’ve determined to go full time ULA until October and reevaluate. I kind of hit the. The ships are burned, it’s all or nothing and I don’t believe it’s all up to me yet. I started to act as if it was and that was starting to cause me to not be present in the moments that I’m in and therefore I was missing the gift of those moments. Right, which is why it’s called the present and or at least that’s a fun pun. And when she told me, yeah, you’ve been texting a lot and you become distracted from your talking, I just all I’ve responded with was thank you for the feedback. When my son said, why are you talking more when mom’s not here, I realized it’s because I was allowing myself to be distracted and focused on other things because she was there to handle it. But shame on me, fuck that Right. But I received that feedback and was like, oh, I’m wrong, I need to be more present here, which is why, within the hour, I shared this sentiment with Lindsay, because I didn’t want it to fade away. I wanted to have myself be accountable to the fact, because I know she’s going to watch me and I know she’ll either be disappointed or more or not right, more proud or whatever. I’m excited by how I’m evolving, based on me putting a flag out there for her to then evaluate. And that’s the crazy thing when you’re walking community with others and yourself is, if you tell yourself or others you’re going to do something, you better damn well do it, because if you don’t, you will degrade who you are and the impact that you have. And that is true in your relationships, but it is most true with yourself. And that’s why all of this journey started with. Can I change who? I saw in the mirror and, frankly, after 18 months of pursuing that, I started to see indicators that Lindsay was seeing. The change was authentic and real and not just hot steam. And then I started to see my children’s behavior change, and then so on and so on. And that evolution continues today, literally because we’re talking about this week me realizing where I’m fucking up, and I’m so grateful for that realization because it allows me to improve and everything gets better because of that right. So how do you overcome the fear? What is the fear of failing? Well, what if it’s okay? What if it’s a hypothesis? What if this is a work in progress? What if, from death till, from birth till death, it’s all just a work in progress, a experiment and a hypothesis in which we continue to allow ourselves the freedom to be wrong, to not yet be successful, and to continue to strive forward and try. I think that the key to that freedom comes in the gift to oneself of it’s okay to be wrong. So, as long as I take appropriate action once I learn that. Thank you for listening to another episode of Thought Expeditions on the Be Relentless Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s show and found value in it, please pay it forward. You can do that by sharing it with someone who you think may find value in it as well, or leaving us a five star review wherever you’re listening to this, if you want to learn more about the work on the Be Relentless Podcast, the book or Sisu stamina and all of the other cool things that we are doing in the ULA universe. Go ahead and head on over to ULAUniversecom and subscribe. Otherwise. Thank you from the Be Relentless team and have a great day.