Jon Mayo: 0:08

Well, hello everyone and welcome back to Thought Expeditions on Be Relentless. Today is a brilliantly exciting day for Kirk, myself and Brandon, because the universal learning approach is live. That’s right. Go over to theulauniversecom and purchase CISU Stamina, the book Be Relentless, learn a bunch about the podcast and go into our blog that contains over 80 articles. Just completely immerse yourself in all the work that we’ve been doing for the last three years behind the scenes now. So it’s been an incredible sprint to the finish and a lot of fun. With that being said, our topic today is meditating while we work, and Brandon and I jump on, celebrate the victories that Kirk and I just accomplished in getting the business launched and then transition over to both meditating while we work and an experiment that provides a backdrop for the concept that we then explore. And the quote of today is sometimes we must simply meditate while we work. Let’s go. Oh, and, by the way, you may have noticed that I just told you that CISU Stamina performance evolved. You know the supplement I’ve been talking about for the last two years is available now. So, as you’re listening to this, head on over to theulauniversecom and check out all the cool stuff Kirk and I’ve been building. Look forward to seeing you there. Now let’s get on with the show. Dude, it’s a heck of a day. We launched CISU Stamina at a Universal Mind approach today. So running fast and very excitable. So.

Brandon Seifert: 2:06

Understandable.

Jon Mayo: 2:08

Pumped for our conversation and to go on an intentional break from the rowing that’s going on over there to engage in a intentional thought expedition. So what have you got cooked up?

Brandon Seifert: 2:21

So I didn’t really cook this one up. You and I just recently had a sync where we decided that the overall idea, exploration would actually start stemming from both of us just depending on what was there. And you sent me a list of just different things that you were kind of working on, and one kind of caught my eye. It says sometimes we simply must meditate while we work. So for the listeners, can you explain that and then kind of go into a brief description of kind of what you mean by that?

Jon Mayo: 2:55

Yeah, absolutely so. A couple of years ago I was working out of a cafe. I was managing a district, I had a lot of road time and suction stopped into a cafe to knock out some admin work and as I was working I noticed an older gentleman probably he was in his late sixties having coffee with someone else, but they had a Bonhoeffer book on their desk and Bonhoeffer is a German theologist and philosopher and you don’t really see him as not like the common reading of the day. So I saw that, went over, introduced myself because why not? And we actually ended up exchanging contact information and getting coffee once or twice a month and he became a mentor of mine for the remaining year that I lived in South Carolina, and so that’s kind of like the fun origin story of what came to one of the pieces of gold I was able to gain from meeting with him and one of the lessons I learned in conversations. We’re talking about having a heavy mind and looking through different things that we may be wrestling with mentally personally those types of things, right and I was like, yeah, just I was struggling with acquiring enough time and bandwidth to process through all that information, right, and he looked at me as, like John, sometimes you just need to meditate while you work, and the simplicity with which he said it truly struck me because I was looking for like time to dedicate solely to thinking through these things. Right, and it just opened up like this for a hand meets forehead type of moment of what if I started thinking about these things during some of the more mundane tasks I do, or while I’m driving, or even if I just released the things I’m thinking about to my subconscious with intentionality before I go to sleep, even right, and I began practicing because of that comment. Okay, as I’m working on this finance document, as I’m working on this, you know, training plan, whatever the case is in the back of my mind, I want to be chewing on, you know, whatever questions are on my mind at the time and whatever question I’m working through the most. That night before bed, I also say I’m curious about what I need to be doing this next year, if that’s, if that’s the question, right, like I would like to define some clarity on what I need to do this next year and I just leave the question, go to sleep and, and both of those ways, while I’m working, sleeping, and while I’m working, doing my job or whatever the other case may be, I’m allowing my mind to also process the things I’m working on and I found that when you combine that with intentional thought like times to intentionally sitting thing five, 10, 15 minutes more more writing, or while you’re training things like that it opened up a 10x factor on the progress I was making on the things I was feeling stuck on because I was able to just chew on them all day long or the majority of the day, opposed to okay, I’m just not going to let it even be in my mind right now because I’m focused on task A, you know, and that’s what. That’s both where it came from, as well as some of the applications and stuff. Does that help like? Did I do okay there? Was it clear enough or what are you thinking?

Brandon Seifert: 6:18

Yeah, yeah, I think that’s that it’s clear enough. So so the it’s almost like a set it for yet it kind of thing, but you just set the intention of the day, so so it’s not necessarily like you’re consistently thinking about it, it’s just you do it prior to working, right, if I, if I captured that right.

Jon Mayo: 6:39

Yeah, it’s. It’s a weird phenomenon to describe because like yes, but there is also like some level of like of conscious energy expenditure towards the topic while you’re working, kind of. It feels similar to if you’re listening to a podcast while you’re doing a task. Okay, except your mind’s thinking about it inactively while you’re focused on the task.

Brandon Seifert: 7:04

That does not sound like an easy thing to do. How did you begin doing that? Was that? Just, you know, you kind of let it build up and over time, you know, after you did the whole think about something before bed and you just kind of got used to it over time. Or like what was the main factor that allowed you to begin this practice?

Jon Mayo: 7:23

Yeah, so I’m combining two things. The thing about before bed I learned about in the last 30 days. So I was like, oh, it fits in, so it’s tied in. So I’m actively right now working on being intentional and doing that every night. The meditate while you work is Both a reflex response, like when I become aware that I’m trying to think through things but I have a lot to do, I realize, oh, there’s some level of crossroads here, and unless I’m under such duress that I feel the need to pivot away from everything else and intentionally prioritize the time to focus solely on getting my mind right. That’s where the idea of like well, meditate while you work, kind of like that trigger light switch, comes on. As far as getting, as far as starting, I would equate it to like wading into water. You just start trying to get your feet wet as much as you can and over time you like. Over time. My experience has been that I’m learning to weigh deeper, deeper into the water and I think, like proficiency wise, right now I’m up to my knees and I’d like to be up to my chest. So it’s. It’s a couple of years and I’m only up to my knees on this, this concept, but it’s been beautiful.

Brandon Seifert: 8:38

Yeah, that definitely makes sense, and so so, after you kind of post that and I started initially thinking about it, I was kind of wondering about different ways of application that one can use that. So so one thing that I did recently look up and I had to relook it up again because I forgot most about it was there’s this, there’s this Israel led team I think it was by ran Hassan I’m sorry, but you’re that who was testing the subconscious and how it applies to to the external world around us. And so basically, what he did was he created this technique known as continuous flash suppression. Basically, what that means is they put on a special pair of glasses that would separate the the visuals you know, from left right to the left eye to the right eye, and they would flash different pictures or something in one eye to the next. So in this example, he flashed a brightly colored square that would change color at an extreme rate at different sizes, so the overall sensory input was so great that the other I basically became blind temporarily for that moment. So in the other eye they would just have a stationary picture of a very basic math equation coming like nine minus four and minus three, something that does require a little bit of thought for the, you know, conscious brain, but nothing like trigonometry kind of crazy stuff, I don’t know. So one interesting thing that came from that is, even though temporarily they’re blinded by the other sensation, basically what ended up happening, or what they realized is the correct answer, was able to be read faster. So basically the test was how fast can one read and answer the question of the, say nine minus four minus three, and they would have two different answers. So first they would have to process the actual equation and then the answer would either be like equals one or equals two. The interesting thing is is most people’s brains recognize and read the correct answer. And now, now that’s that’s an interesting thing, because that means that their subconscious had, at some fundamental level, even while they were being blinded by this other sensory input, had picked up the outside stimulus that we’re not normally looking at and was able to read it faster because their brains had that quicker response to what is correct.

Jon Mayo: 11:22

And so Okay, so just to verify I’m tracking Right. This experiment had these like bifocal or, but isolating lenses that separated the field of view between eyes, and on the one eye they would show this bright flashing light and shape. On the other eye, they’d show this math equation and then they would. What they’re finding is that it was difficult for someone to consciously recognize what they’re seeing with the eye that was not seeing the brightly colored flash and shape, however correct, and they were then asked what is the correct answer to the math equation that we showed you most? The majority of the subjects in the experiment were able to identify the correct response this spot and more swiftly, despite the lack of, despite the visual differences that were being made by the experiment. Is that accurate?

Brandon Seifert: 12:10

Correct and then I didn’t, I guess, kind of leave out one thing is it would say the actual answer within the equation as well. So the, the time that did change, was the thing that is accurate, the thing that our brain knows how to do. It was able to recognize faster and therefore built a response for something they were supposed to look for and gave the correct answer and say, yes, this was true. It could do that significantly faster than the, the one that was incorrect. So the. The point that I’m kind of leaning towards or trying to get to is would it be beneficial for someone who is trying to do this working meditation or this, you know, sensory input, to help figure out different questions that you want done throughout your day? If, say, at your workstation or wherever you just have that question posed, say, clearly written down on a whiteboard or something where you see it most of your day? What kind of impact would that have? So, say you wanted to. Why am I scared of bees? Whatever that is secretly working on? Because, no matter what is part of your sensory input that your brain is normally tuning out. So would you see that to be a benefit, or yeah?

Jon Mayo: 13:34

absolutely, and you bringing this up actually shows me it unleashes a bunch of fun things for us to jump into. So in my bedroom I have a piece of paper printed off with a question on it that’s specific to the education of our sons and Lindsay and I get to see that question and allow it to percolate in our minds every time we see it. So we’re doing that actively. On the whiteboard behind me I have a couple of questions that are problems I’ve not solved and do not know the direction forward on. So I wrote the questions on the board simply so that I’m reminded of what the question is. Now what we’re talking about is releasing the work that we’re doing to our subconscious right and in the creative space. That’s actually like a well known practice. So there’s there’s two books that help kind of dance around. Well, there’s two books that I’m in love with. One is called a more beautiful question, which lays the foundation framework for how we can unlock innovation, creativity and brilliance and freedom by pursuing questions that lead to better questions that lead to better solutions and onward the cycle goes until we find a beautiful question that we can pursue for the rest of our lives. Right, it’s like the most evolved form Not written complementarily but, I think, an incredible companion though there’s no formal association is a book called Borrowing Brilliance, and in borrowing brilliance it talks the the premises. If you look at the military and the kindergarten school teacher, you can take things from both of those very different worlds and apply them in the auto industry and it’s going to appear as if you just came up with something radically new. But in reality you’re just borrowing the brilliance of another sector and able to intelligently apply it in the space you’re in. Both of the discussions here borrowing brilliance and the pursuit of a more beautiful question advocate releasing thoughts and to the subconscious and how it and explore why we gain breakthroughs on problems that we’re working on when we’re in the shower, on a walk with family, on vacation, on a sabbatical, doing these different pursuits right. And one of the things that Kirk and I actually have a deliberate practice on is when we get, when we begin to vapor lock on a prom right, we’re starting to see red. We’ve been working on this issue for a couple hours. We’re not making progress, getting angry, it becomes necessary to do a hard break away from the prom that we’re working on and shift gears entirely and what typically is happening at this point, at least from my own personal experience, is that, like in an active prom suit, solving solution, the prom, the solution will just all of a sudden strike me like a thunderbolt when I shift gears, not like within five seconds, but just I’ll be shifting gears and the more immersed I get in the gear, shift all the center, big boom, there it is right. So the solution reveals itself. So I think that not only do I personally think it’s a great idea, but I also think that there is a significant amount of research and exploration demonstrating the power of that very idea and, in fact, flow state. Last thing, because I’m all jazzed up on Mountain Dew about this, the entire concept of flow state is action without intentional thought, right, Like without your mind being in the way, whereas anxiety, as a juxtaposition, is thought without control. Flow state is action without thought. Right, there we go. That was the quote, and there’s a lot to think about in that very own statement, right? But when focused on the matter of, well, what is flow, it’s like you wake up to the fact that you’ve been working for the last couple hours flying through and you’re like, what did I just do? I mean I accomplished a lot that was beautiful. It’s like this almost euphoric experience to come out of that you like at least I myself I pursue constantly like getting into flow. So I wake up to three hours later it’s like I’ve accomplished a lot, right, but the whole goal there is how do you turn your brain off as far as your ego, your conscious self awareness, in the instance or manner that it’s distracting and getting in the way so that you can become fully immersed in the present moment? And all of these things the flow, state bar and brilliance, pursuit of a more beautiful question and meditating while you work, center around the idea of we have a tremendous amount of horsepower available to us If we just open ourselves up our eyes or ears, in our hands, to the possibility of being curious and exploring. What can we uncover in the moments that before seemed isolated to another task?

Brandon Seifert: 18:39

So do you have any certain like tricks or like methods to get into a flow stage, just because you’ve been seeking it for such a long time? Is there, is there anything that you like to do or have identified, at least within yourself, that can help you enter that kind of state?

Jon Mayo: 18:59

Yeah, so Andy Huberman did an amazing podcast on focus and flow states and things like that and it’s interesting because and we should work we’ll make sure the link to that episodes and in this one because he does a thorough, wonderful job of giving all of the data behind it. So if you want that, go to him, I’ll give you the. The wave tops, right, but essentially our brain typically operates in cycles and the cycle, the rhythm, is around 90 ish minutes, right, a REM cycle when we sleep is around 90 minutes. A focus cycle is about the same, interestingly enough. So learning like learning, that the mind, you know, within one standard deviation will go through a sleep cycle and roughly 90 minutes. I will actually schedule how much sleep I get each night based on 90 minute intervals. So if I’m going down and it’s a matter of I can have between 4, or 3, 4 hours and 30 minutes of five hours of sleep, then you know, counting for some wiggle room of falling asleep, right, I will target the 430, because I know I will likely wake up not in the middle of a REM cycle and therefore be more lucid. Same with six hours versus six and a half or seven, right, I prefer seven and a half or six, not really in between, and the reason being is waking up is so much simpler, lighter, faster, cleaner when I do that. Well, the same is true with productivity and the two things that were very helpful that I think are like the fundamental practices that I’m working on right now is giving myself the grace to understand that I will likely fall into flow for roughly 90 minutes and that if I, when I start to come out of it and begin so, become self aware again of what I’m doing, recognizing that it’s normal to have a transitionary period and not just to punch myself back into the next flow so Huberman talks about, you know it typically takes like five to 15 minutes of transitionary work to get into that flow. You know last roughly that 90 minutes and then give transitionary experiences and so on. And I found that by applying one more principle, which is changes, the master key, which is a whole another thought, and we’ve explored it a couple of times. I’ve explored a couple of times with the show, but to keep it current, essentially changes the master key is if you’re working on a computer, go do something with your hands, or on an actual piece of paper. If you’re sitting in a desk, go for a walk or go work out, right? If you’re working with your hands because you’re a carpenter tradesman, something that your physical labor is your work, then you could switch it up by reading off your screen or, you know, doing a more stationary job where your mind is more active, or what have you, depending on what your activities are. And if everything you do is strenuous, then paint, do something creative, right? If your work is physically and mentally demanding, then the switch up would be to go and enjoy the beauty of the horizon, or to draw or paint or write creatively, you see. So it’s like what can I actively do that pursue something I’m interested in? That’s very different than what I’ve been doing. And that allows the context for me to answer your question more more concisely, given that we’re where I’m currently at. I’m working on achieving flow states and I am able to do around four or five a day, which is quite a few days currently, and my strategy is I wake up, I utilize caffeine very specifically to this end. I utilize CCU stamina specifically, which is available now. Oh, that feels good to say To the set. Yeah, it feels good, but I’ll use caffeine intentionally. But then I’ll allow myself to do some check the block tasks a fun, short, creative task, something to begin to get into the flow. When I sit down to do the work and then, like five minutes in, I’ll transition to the heavier task, I’ll get into the zone, I’ll flow, and then whether or not the work’s done, I notice it doesn’t really matter. An hour and a half, two hours later I’ve become self aware of like, oh, my goodness, what am I? This is boring, right? Or this is strenuous, or I’m tired or hungry or maybe whatever. So then I’ll get up, go jump in the pool, cut out a hole in the ice, go for a walk, whatever the case is, for five, 10 minutes, just get out of the office entirely and then come back, go through another transitionary cycle of five to two 15 minutes, get into a flow and continue and by allowing that Pareto like cycle, it’s working pretty well. So there’s a lot of details there and we’re flying fast through a lot of concepts, which I think is a blast. But on working on the flow, that’s the rhythm that’s currently working for myself and I could not emphasize enough how much of a work in progress that is and the fact that some days it’s just like I’m completely out of luck on accomplishing any of that, and on those days it seems to be that I have a messy mind that needs cleaned up to allow for that. So I end up shifting focus once that becomes aware.

Brandon Seifert: 24:32

One thing that I’ve been kind of meaning, through this discussion, to ask you is what is the noticeable difference between doing this type of work in meditation, because you said you’ve noticed a vast difference between this and still or active meditation Is it? Is there a vast difference? Or, like, what’s the difference between, and what is the purpose of doing it while you’re working, like as you have more time in the day to be able to do that because you are such a busy person, or why does this work so well for you?

Jon Mayo: 25:10

I think it creates peace, man, I think it’s a matter of peace. So, like the thing this very week that I realized, oh, I need to meditate while I work, and that like was, like aha, we’re there. It is a direct correlation to the fact that currently I’ve been, I have felt, convicted to build and get the ULA to launch right, which happened today, and in that, you know, get the communication channels, everything else going. But when I’ve meditated, prayed, I feel convicted to build. Well, at the same time, I’m very so, I happen, but at the same time, I need to provide and with the season I’m in right now I’m, you know, I’ve mentioned the last couple of times, but I do not have a formal employment relationship that I’m in. I’m building my business. I just launched it. We’re going to now be spreading the word, growing it, and I’m going to continue to pursue the right team to partner with and serve for the time, you know, for as long as is appropriate and because I’m in that transition of both launching a business and not being part of a team, provision is not coming in, so I’m living off of reserves of different types. That creates tension in my mind and in my body. So I want to reflect on what do I need to do? That question right. What do I need to do today? And in that question I already feel the simple response, which is not satisfying build, right. That’s the personal context for myself at this moment, between me and my creator and my meditation. What see, what appears right to me, based on my convictions and who I am, my personal experience, you, I am distracted and tempted to want to focus and dwell on what do I need to do today? Because build, that one word is a very unsatisfying response and a very unsatisfying thing to put into practice. But I think when I text that to you, I think it was Tuesday, on two days of Thursday, so two days ago, 48 hours ago I was reflecting on that very question and it was like you know what you need to do. You need build, so what else you need to do you need to meditate on while you work, Start building and let it sit. So I did, and by taking that step and allowing the question of what do I need to do next, which is really the question, to sit in the back of my mind while I’m building, I one was able to put myself into productive action and to allow my mind to create the next vantage point from which I can see, because the other benefit of meditating while you work is you can’t see past the horizon line, but you will be able to once you get to the horizon line right. So, like if you look outside right now, whatever’s blocking your view, you can’t see past it, but if you walk to what’s blocking your view and look around it, you’ll be able to see further. So sometimes you’d need to just allow yourself to work forward, even if it’s, you know just, even if it’s fulfilling your duties at your job for another day, that time and progression of activity and creation of whatever value it is you’re providing the organization at which you serve, can be enough to progress you to a point where you have a new perspective to see the very thing that you’re struggling with, to answer, and you’re looking for it because you’re meditating upon it while you’re going through those actions. And there’s something beautiful between the tension between those two sources of thought in action, as well as the ability to move forward and freeing yourself from the weight of whatever you’re chewing on and allowing yourself to continue to chew on it while you’re moving forward. That in between, like this Venn diagram we’re describing. I find a tremendous amount of peace that allows me to do more with less distraction, or a better word would be less chaos and disdressed unrest in my mind, and that, for myself, is where the values deeply appreciated, because I’m then more lucid, more able to become immersed in the current circumstances and enjoy flow or the experience that I’m feeling.

Brandon Seifert: 29:48

Right, and so an easy, easy trap that this kind of just brought up to me is the dwelling on what could have been, or the, the seasonality that you’re in. How did you or I guess you kind of just told me, but it’s very easy to only focus on that bad and therefore cause more anxiety. So so was this your response, to kind of kick yourself out of potentially thinking about those anxiety feeling factors of hey, I want to get this up and running. You know, I’m in the season or any of those, and I don’t know if that was really giving you anxiety. I’m just putting them out there.

Jon Mayo: 30:34

But for example.

Brandon Seifert: 30:34

You know, real world for me is I can very easily get enamored by work. You know, maybe the boss says something, you know it’s nine comment, and then most people, at least in my mind, will dwell on that and it’s almost like your brain hyper, fixates and becomes very analytical on what the next steps are. But it’s almost like you took that potential to be fixated on these different topics and you said well, I know what I can do, I’m going to work, but I’m still going to focus on these things and therefore you kind of let it simmer in the background. So so how do you feel about that?

Jon Mayo: 31:21

Yeah, the hyper fixation is difficult because the Stoics gave us a lot of powerful tools such as focus on what you can control, like over the rest, which is very easily said, not easily done. Once we identify what we can control, simply letting go of the rest may not be emotionally feasible for where we are. And, yeah, and in those contexts, contacts like I was not emotionally able to let go of the fact that where I am now, it doesn’t matter why I’m here anymore. So I had to press through that and essentially I had to remember why I made the decisions I did and by walking back through OK well, why am I here? And then going through the details again, I was able to bring enough context of what led me to the decisions I made that led to where I am today, that I was once again able to both refresh myself and that I would do it again, which is something that I’m at least grateful for in this situation. And second, given that I would do it again and I’m where I am, based on intentional action, even if it’s not playing out how I necessarily ideally choose it to, perhaps it reminds me that I didn’t error in that right or the areas I did I learned from, and that exercise typically will free me by retracing my steps, will free me to get to the point where I can subdue or allow, like dampen, the noise that’s being created by whatever insecurities, concerns, frustrations or pain are coming from those circumstances, from the past or my mind, which can be enough, sometimes just enough to allow for the focus to shift to the action or the thoughts that I do have direct control over or am able to apply myself to.

Brandon Seifert: 33:25

Well, I think that was a very good, thorough explanation of that Last parting thought, because I now have full intentionality to at least test this. Give it, you know, a couple weeks of doing this every single day. Where would you suggest that I start?

Jon Mayo: 33:47

I would start with a morning reflection where you I use a note like a notepad in my phone I have this little meditation and it both. I utilize it both to call forth and proclaim who I want to be by stating who I am in that, in the statements that I wrote there. But I also have a series of questions that are on my mind and heart and I reflect upon it when I first wake up. So, and oftentimes throughout the day, I’ll pull it out, and sometimes before bed I’ll pull it out. So I would start by writing down and whatever form makes sense to you, so that you have some form of visibility or access to the things that you want to meditate on while you work. I’d release them, I’d release your like, I’d release myself from the burden of solving it and allowing it to stand as a question when I transitioned to work, and then I’d be incredibly patient with myself. If I was starting over. That’s what I would do. I’d do those three things. I’d write it down, I’d reflect upon it, I’d release myself from it. So I guess four, and then I’d be patient and I would listen to what’s working and not, and I’d follow the different inclinations accordingly.

Brandon Seifert: 35:13

Sounds like some good homework.

Jon Mayo: 35:16

Yeah, it should be fun, and you know it’s beautiful about these things is, by exploring them it becomes like a whetstone or a file that, with hyper focus, encourages me to redouble my efforts in pursuing the same ideas and concepts that we’re exploring. Because being forced to articulate them in conversation, especially knowing that it’s going to go public, and feeling the burden of wanting to have a valuable conversation that benefits you and I and then, by nature of that, also benefits those who listen, is like the perfect magnifying glass of intentionality to create some beautiful space which we get to dance in. And I just love it because every single one of these sharpens the manner with which I walk through life and interact with the world. So I’m grateful for doing these. I love them. It’s precisely what thought expeditions I think was set out to do, and they’re raw and authentic.

Brandon Seifert: 36:21

I agree, and anyone that is listening, just like we’ve done before. If you have a topic that you think that is worth exploring, please reach out to us. There’s a link and it has multiple different questions. You can fill it out in 30 seconds, but I’d always love to. I’m sure both of us would love to hear back from our community and involve you guys in these conversations.

Jon Mayo: 36:48

Thank you for listening to another episode of Thought Expeditions on the Be Relentless podcast. If you enjoyed today’s show and found value in it, please pay it forward. You can do that by sharing it with someone who you think may find value in it as well, or leaving us a five star review wherever you’re listening to this. If you want to learn more about the work on the Be Relentless podcast, the book or CC stamina and all of the other cool things that we are doing in the ULA universe, go ahead and head on over to ULA universecom and subscribe. Otherwise, thank you from the Be Relentless team and have a great day.