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062. Surrendering To Motherhood, Postpartum Depression, Self Awareness & Personal Growth _ Jade Myers

062. Surrendering To Motherhood, Postpartum Depression, Self Awareness & Personal Growth _ Jade Myers Be Relentless

Today I sat down with Jade Myers, co-owner, and operator of Flow State Jiu Jitsu here in Falcon, my personal mecca for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training. Today’s conversation was spurred on by episode 059. Thought Expeditions: Suicide, Finding Strength in Vulnerability & Confronting the Sirens Call. We attack these topics as well as postpartum depression, self awareness, personal growth and working towards health in this journey we call life."Dragon's Horde Gold, Because the thing you most need is always to be found where you least want to look."-Dr. Jordan B. PetersonLearn more about Flow State Jiu Jitsu by visiting https://flowstatejj.com/If you found value in the show please SHARE IT with someone you care about as well as SUBSCRIBE and RATE IT with a 5-Star Review! Ready to dive deeper? Visit ULAUniverse.com to explore more of the impactful work we're doing. Don't forget to use code 'BERELENTLESS' at checkout to enjoy a 10% discount sitewide!Do you have a question for us, want to be on the show, or have a recommendation for a guest or topic? CONTACT US HERE.We are grateful you joined us! Be Relentless is a Forge Publications LLC production and is proudly co-branded with the Universal Learning Approach. Copyright 2023. All Rights Reserved.

Today I sat down with Jade Myers, co-owner, and operator of Flow State Jiu Jitsu here in Falcon, my personal mecca for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training. Today’s conversation was spurred on by episode 059. Thought Expeditions: Suicide, Finding Strength in Vulnerability & Confronting the Sirens Call. We attack these topics as well as postpartum depression, self awareness, personal growth and working towards health in this journey we call life.

“Dragon’s Horde Gold, Because the thing you most need is always to be found where you least want to look.”
-Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

Learn more about Flow State Jiu Jitsu by visiting https://flowstatejj.com/

If you found value in the show please SHARE IT with someone you care about as well as SUBSCRIBE and RATE IT with a 5-Star Review!

Do you have a question for us, want to be on the show, or have a recommendation for a guest or topic? CONTACT US HERE.

We are grateful you joined us!

Do you want to learn more? Check out:

  1. The Universal Learning Approach & Sisu Stamina, Performance Evolved at: ULA-Universe.com
  2. The Book: Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be WayMakers.
  3. The Audiobook: Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be WayMakers.

Episode Transcript

Jon Mayo: 0:00
sometimes, too, when we become so intentional and focused on working through, transforming and growing, and you can punish yourself for a simple pleasure that you may be perfectly okay to experience if given the freedom like you just described. Hello everyone, welcome back to Be Relentless. Today’s guest is Jade Myers who, with Chad Myers, owns and operates Flow State Jiu Jitsu here in Falcon, which is my personal mecca for training. Today’s conversation was spurred on by Episode 59, the thought expeditions on suicide, finding strength and vulnerability in confronting the sirens call, and we attack head on those topics, as well as postpartum depression, personal growth and working through towards health in this journey we call life. Prior to jumping in, I do want to provide a short, shameless plug. As mentioned in our last episode, we now have a contact us form, so if you have any recommendations for the show, ideas or want to be a guest, please reach out with us. We’d love to communicate with you and continue to create powerful conversations around that. Finally, a thought to open up the company as we press in Dragon’s Horde Gold, because the thing you most need is always to be found where you least want to look. Are you excited?

Jade Myers: 1:42
Yeah, I’m nervous. I got real nervous all of a sudden I was like, oh yeah, okay, no.

Jon Mayo: 1:48
I’m fine, that’s because we run a legitimate operation here.

Jade Myers: 1:52
Yeah, I think that was it and I think like at first, like the video popped up and like he popped up and I was like, holy shit, am I in some type of video? You know, I thought I was like, am I like having an experience right now? Like I didn’t see you, and then I, and then you popped up. I was like, oh no, that’s okay. Okay, like everything played out together, but at first I was like fuck, what is happening? I’ve been hacked.

Jon Mayo: 2:20
Oh, that’s amazing. No, no, no negative experiences, just a fun opportunity to press in. And one of the things I’m really excited about for our conversation is that it’s stemming from a thought expedition we just recently did, which was episode 59, suicide, finding strength and vulnerability and confronting the sirens call. And you listened to that. We were messaging back and forth and essentially you forced me at gunpoint to jump on today.

Jade Myers: 2:48
I did, I did.

Jon Mayo: 2:51
Because that had resonated with you and you had some things you wanted to explore from your own experiences and kind of just have a healthy conversation as we do here from there. So I was overjoyed and a little bit of context for everyone. So you’re, jade Myers, you and Chad run flow state jujitsu here in Falcon Colorado.

Jade Myers: 3:15

Jon Mayo: 3:16
Which is my Mecca for jujitsu, and we love you guys, so it’s great to finally have you on the show and hopefully we’ll have Chad soon, and have some great combos.

Jade Myers: 3:24
Oh yeah, we love you guys so much. It’s always a good way to go. I’m a walks in the door. It’s like oh, john’s here, yay, you’re gone. I was like where’d he go? Okay, he’s gone. He’s taken the kids.

Jon Mayo: 3:39
It’s hilarious because I either get it’s. Actually that’s a very rare response for me. Typically I walk in the room and people go pale and run away and scream and so I’m glad I got good feedback for you. Yeah, it’s really encouraging, awesome. So we have a high value topic and one that kind of just want to jump both feet into. What is it that made you want to jump on here, given that conversation?

Jade Myers: 4:07
Well, I think it’s always good when, when these conversations come to light because, again, sharing it is a very big deal for people. And so I felt, like with you being able just to put that out there, like, okay, what’s John have to say? Like John’s had these experiences too, and, granted, like I understand that we both have very different backgrounds, to, like you were in the military I’ve never been in the military, you know just doing like a little thing out there, right, but when you were talking about your, you called them, the moments, right, those instincts, when you like, have these feelings we’re just like I could do this and that would be it.

Jon Mayo: 4:49
Sirens call.

Jade Myers: 4:50
Sirens call yes. And so when I heard that, I was just like whoa. And then you like started giving your examples of them, and that was very relatable to me, because I’ve had those, I’ve had those multiple times, you know, and sometimes too, like you guys like went into details about like talking the depths of it, you know, like trying to figure out maybe where those things came from, like why they came to light, why were these things. And then there was like you discussed too about, like you got really frustrated with yourself that like that even was like a thought of loud like in your body at all and so like. For that for me too was I had done a podcast with them. It was Dr Excuse me, it was with Dr Jerry Novak and he’s a psychiatrist and and we he’s seen me a lot through my journey, saw me through the journey of being pregnant, post-parm depression and all my ups and downs and things like that, and so it was just interesting like how in some of those processes you were like saying how frustrated you were with yourself and I just know you’re that’s just like johns, that’s john’s temperament, that’s john’s energy, and I was like I wonder why that’s so frustrating to him. So it was like I had questions, like I want to ask john more too, because I have like questions I want to ask him. But then also bringing the woman perspective into it too, because, like post-partum depression is very bad. A lot of women, I think, go through it, but they don’t really know that they’re going through it. And it was like a very big moment in my life too where that after I had cautious and I was like living this, these moments that I would have, where it’s like I could just end it right now and I wish I could say like those things only went on for a short period of my life, but like after, I’ve had thoughts before people in my high school had killed themselves and things like that. But a lot of those thoughts they just last over over a year sometimes, or they come once a year or it’s like a heavy period of time where they’re coming, and so it was just kind of going into stuff about that, but yeah, Wow, there’s a lot.

Jon Mayo: 7:06
Sorry, no, don’t be sorry, that’s perfect. But what’s so exciting, as we press into this, is talking about cashists and, for context, you have four beautiful little monsters and, you know, I have four crazy little savages, so they’re all feral and when our families get together, it’s like just this horde of children takes over the earth. There’s eight of them and we are severely outnumbered.

Jade Myers: 7:29
And yeah well it’s interesting.

Jon Mayo: 7:34
I’m excited that you have questions too. It’ll be cool to see how this unfolds for us, and I was curious are you in the position to be able to have your phone on? Do Not Disturb. Yes, it is.

Jade Myers: 7:46
Yeah, it might. Alarm went off. It was for you, so I forgot to turn my alarm off. But yes, it is on. Do Not Disturb now.

Jon Mayo: 7:52
But my alarm was yes, sorry about that no big deal. I actually appreciate the occasional things like that because it adds, in my opinion, the authenticity of us actually just having conversation, which is what we’re dealing it’s like it’s not all polished, everything’s not pieced out, but one of the things you mentioned with postpartum depression which obviously I’ve not experienced, but I have observed and done my best to walk through the different cycles that Lindsay’s experienced, through the multiple, you know, children that we’ve had and one of the things that shocked me and I figured that may be an interesting place to begin our conversation, just dive in is how, not only how unexpected it can be, but how different it can be, not just even for the individual, like mom to mom, but from child to child with the same mom, because it was like different every time.

Jade Myers: 8:46
Yeah, yeah, and I think with that too, that just shows like the. I’m going to get really hippy on you, okay. But, like just shows like the authenticity of, like, the child that you’re creating because, like, they take different things from you. You know what I mean and I’ve gone through lots of different things with, like you know, having babies and things like that lots of different looking into stuff. One of the things is when you have boys, boys are harder on the woman, boys are harder for women to recover from. You have to think about you’re creating a whole other gender besides what you are. You know, and so the impact that boys leads on women is very hard and it’s a lot, it’s very intense on them and and just thinking about like, when you’re pregnant with different kiddos too, you have different things that do not. You cannot eat certain things, for instance you know what I mean, but maybe you can’t sleep and some of these things end up translating into the life of this child and sometimes I mean it’s like it’s just like looking at every piece of everything, right, but yeah, it is so different, I think, with each kid and how it, and what’s going on in your life, your circumstances, what’s happening. You know, adding one kid okay, now there’s two, now there’s multiple, and I know, with Lindsey they’re all were underneath a certain age, right by all the time all of them were born, they were close you know, and I think the impact on that too, and like women trying to be strong in themselves and we don’t always ask for help, and like we need to know that it is okay to ask for help and it’s okay to like submit, it’s okay to like to know that you cannot be everything, you cannot do everything, you know. I think so much of us women try to be that and we’re killing ourselves in that process.

Jon Mayo: 10:35
It’s it’s an expectation that we have, that we don’t need an expectation of such so yeah, I think that’s fair, and one of the things that comes to mind for me, like from my perspective, is there’s so much focus on the kiddo, right when it’s born, and the blessing of that, the gift of that, the joy of that, that, and there’s very little conversation around just welfare checks, maintenance checks, friendship checks on the human being that’s still there, but just keep birth, you know, and give you the mother. Yeah, and does that play into it as well?

Jade Myers: 11:10
I think so. I think it’s hard because every woman is different, every experience is indifferent. And so again with some of these things like woman breastfeed, right, but some women they don’t want people around, some women are not comfortable with people around. Some women are just like here, baby, come on, let’s go. But other women it’s an insecurity, like whatever it is, and so like you want help, but then you push the help away. Or you want help, but you don’t know what you want. So then you don’t want help. You know what I mean, and so it’s. That’s women, right, the whole cycle. But I think, like that’s a big part that definitely plays a key. Like after like, oh, the whole baby fever, all that stuff has worn off, those sleepless nights still continue, those, and then it just becomes a routine for you right, everything becomes routines and habits for us. Well, the baby just never sleeps, you know, but maybe there’s something I could do to possibly change that. But we get so fixated on the baby or overwhelming, like the baby needs this, the baby’s not getting enough this. You know the anxieties and all these things that start to come into play when you’re going through a child and you don’t know what to expect, or you’re just worried, or you watch something like your environment, like there’s so many things that can just continue to add to that. You know, for anybody dad and mom, you know so but the sleep is like the biggest thing. I think that women just really struggle with, you know, and not getting enough of it, and like that. We know how important that is and how much that affects you. And I’m not going to I’m not very good at remembering people’s names, but there’s a gentleman who talks about sleep and like if you don’t get a certain amount, it’s like you’re not even like alive right now. You know what I mean. Like I don’t know how you’re functioning, like how do people do it? And there’s times where I just lived off of no sleep for so long that my mental health, my, whatever I was doing, nothing was working for me, because I needed more pieces to fit together in this place and I. They were everywhere, you know.

Jon Mayo: 13:20
Yeah Well, when you don’t get enough sleep, you absolutely start to become intoxicated off of that and then just continue going into greater levels of intoxication and kind of out of body experiences and degradated function. So that’s very real and, like the military has a pretty keen eye on that and that’s why they have like air quotes, minimal sleep requirements and stuff for extended operations, but that there’s a higher risk that must be accepted when you start dipping below that, especially compounded over time. And kiddos really do do that. And one of the reasons, like when you had mentioned when you talk and you had given a couple of topics and you shared them again this morning. But one of the things that excited me about pushing postpartum into the light a bit more and exploring it with you is I’ve got quite a few friends right now who are about to enter parenthood and you know, because just like with the sirens call and the potential of those rapid onset or sustained suicidal ideations is something that isn’t wanting to be discussed often or is discussed sparingly, especially in circles where strength and intentionality and all those things are working to be cultivated. It’s like, well, this is a full human equation. Let’s look at the full human equation, right and in the same capacity. I’ve been in a few conversations I’ve recently and been focusing on like, hmm, here’s how we can prepare as like dads, because I’m talking with my buddies right from the perspective I have. But then I was thinking about how in the world do we walk alongside our wives and how do we support that? And even just being aware that this may or may not affect you on some level, because sometimes it’s very minimal, sometimes it’s more severe even just being aware that it may be a thing at minimum could stop the T bone in the intersection, so to speak.

Jade Myers: 15:13
right, 100% and not getting to. I think it’s important because not allowing it to get to the point where your wife is like because then it puts a strain on your marriage. You know she’s having all these anxieties and feelings like what else is there going on inside, like that’s a lot happening. You know what I mean. And, like you said, like we need to see the whole picture of the things together and I think for like men, it’s just like can men are just men, like that’s the biggest thing for me of realizing being married, and that you have to realize, like they don’t see the things you see, like you could be like I’m putting this right in front of the stairs because they will know to carry this vacuum up the stairs if it’s in the middle in the way, right, well, that’s a weird place for your, my wife to put that, we’ll just go around it. You know what I mean. So, like we have to like realize that communication and these parts and just being so open with your partner, like hey, I’m just not, like I’m not feeling myself today, like I just just having weird thoughts. You know what I mean and sometimes those thoughts are really hard to share. But I found also this writing. There’s this writing where I say that we’re going cathartic writing, and so this allows you to like your hand just starts free flowing once you start doing it more and more, to start just put a thought in there and just start going with it. And that’s what I’ve been doing, through lots of different anxieties or different things. I’m trying to work through that. It’s been brought up through the process of grieving my father, who just passed away. But there’s so many of these practices and these grieving books that we can take into real life and so. But what it comes down to too is like we have to realize too that the fear of when women have miscarriages, the fear of just be completely unknown, the fear of a new diagnosis, like there’s so many things in that first life, year of life of that child and continuously that just feels so unknown that we have to understand and balance the wife out and some of those anxieties that they’re going off. You know, like we need to make sure what like she’s taking time for herself, that they’re not obsessing over the baby, because I worked in early childhood as well and you see some of these women like they just can’t get a grip on reality. You know what.

Jon Mayo: 17:32
I mean.

Jade Myers: 17:33
The world is only this world, but it’s becoming a little, might be a little more toxic in different ways, because maybe they’re battling something within, like these all can be just little signs that maybe they’re just stepping towards another park. Every woman’s going to be different, but know what your wife, know how your wife is. Babies change people, though. You know what I mean. But they woman need the support that they need. I mean, there are times like I’m going to go off a little tangent here maybe, but I had so many kids together and sometimes when you have children, some children tend to be easier than others. Some 10 children tend to be colloquy. These are all things that are very hard to deal with if this is not something you’re used to. You don’t have patients, or maybe your partner doesn’t have patients, like there’s lots of factors that play into this. But like my one daughter, she was very demanding. She just came out like it was just rough. She was breech C-section, lots of trauma around that pregnancy was just hard. It was just harder for me as that child comes to light. She’s still a hard child. Then you start seeing some of your characteristics of like how emotionally unstable this child is, and you have all these other kids that need attention now too. And so these things start coming into play, where you start getting frustrated with your kids. You start resenting your kids, you start resenting motherhood, you start resenting the laundry that’s piled up, the dishes that are over here. You become overwhelmed because you’re trying some. You know, I felt like the image for so much, so many of us was like to live this perfect life your house is beautiful, your house is neat, your thing is clean. Like those are not. Like that’s not always reality, you know. And telling the woman like hey, you know what? It’s okay that that laundry doesn’t get done, but sometimes women become obsessive over these things and the overwhelming piling of things. They don’t want to be a part of it. So, yeah, yeah, that’s just like a little bit of that.

Jon Mayo: 19:37
Yeah, and you know, exploring that, obviously I’m thinking of it from the perspective of how I can relate and walking through life with Lindsay. I think I’ve been a fairly involved dad and husband, especially in the later years and just because before being young and military and all these things pulled away, and then we’ve taken very intentional steps to work more closely together. But there’s still this chasm of exploration that we’re seeking to gain understanding of one another, how we operate, what our needs are. But over and through and I mean we started having kiddos when we were babies ourselves. You know we had four under three and all this stuff and like even right now we’re navigating this very interesting season where Lindsay has a couple of goals that she’s pursuing and we have the four kiddos in their home and I’m working very hard to create provision for us and build. So it’s like okay, we both are spending. You know I’m up 330, going until late and you’re up and going hard and we’re doing these things. How do we mutually support each other in the home, the duties of the home right, maintaining our house? How do we support each other in this? How do we support it in child rearing and cultivating our relationship and in creating space to do that self work which is so critical, so that we have energy to give, and I’m basically frankly of the belief that this is a never ending pursuit and task yeah, at least knowing it’s there, yeah, and working on it intentionally versus why are we growing apart and why do we all want to kill each other? You know it’s a different.

Jade Myers: 21:20
Yeah, it’s a completely different energy you know, and I think that’s the point too is like, when you have kids, like, too, there’s so many things that come into play with this right, but when you have kids and you guys, your marriage still comes first, like your partner was there before the children. Like you know what I mean. Not to say that these children don’t bring value at all, but remember the foundations that created that. You know what I mean. Like we have to be soundly found and like you and Lindsay, just like observing you guys. I’ve observed you over the times that we’ve met you and I can’t wait to go into like more of that stuff in a later podcast. You know, just like your growth, what I observed and but like just how you guys operate with each other, how you communicate with each other. You know, even in times of frustration or whatever it is like. It is well known that Lindsay and John, it’s like no dad’s in charge or mom’s in charge in this moment, mom and dad are going to talk and we’ll let you know what you’re going to do. You know what I mean. Like it’s just like, oh, it’s like the power. You know what I mean. It’s like yeah, lindsay, like she makes me. Like she makes me feel good. You know what I mean. She just it’s go ahead.

Jon Mayo: 22:32
What is it that you’re excited to explore? Because, I mean, there’s no time like the present and if there’s something front of mind, you know we can. Just we don’t have a set agenda in our exploration, right?

Jade Myers: 22:41
So it’s like what brings life. Okay. So, for instance, when it goes into, like the business, when things were happening with the business and it was like things that continuously started happening. But in that process, like realizing that people and suicidal ideations and all these things and all the depths of whatever we are feeling, it all comes down to us, everything comes back to us and how we’re feeling and how we’re doing and you provided so much love and support for us during that time your family was constant. And then it was a time where, like John needed to step back for a minute, because John needed to reevaluate, like what am I doing here too, because it was just so much happening in this time. Right, you had stuff going on, personal, whatever it was. Obviously we had stuff going on. He always has things going on. But like it’s going to make me cry, but like the grace you showed because you needed to step back for yourself. But you still are, like I still love you guys, but I’m going to step back. You know, like how are you communicated that? In ways that you did it, but it just showed like John’s growing too, like John’s realizing, okay, I need to like see what are my values. I need to reset my values here, you know, because sometimes we start getting we want our community to stay so strong in some of these certain areas but like it was just chaos just being thrown up like confetti, you know, and we all didn’t know where we were going to land. You know, we didn’t know what we and it was like such a huge growth people for like, like so much internal growth and mental growth and self growth and realizations for people Like man. I just felt like during that time, you know, you just stayed constant and just how you are as a person and how Chad is as a person, you guys love each other for who you are, but you guys are just so able to communicate with each other and that’s what’s like so beautiful, when people are able to like hey, this is my boundary, you’re crossing my boundary, certain things. In that aspect, you kind of understand what I’m like going and just like there’s so much grace and respect for people when it especially during the periods of my life where I’ve had to retreat back and come back to me because, like what, why am I feeling these, these, these suicidal thoughts, why all this stuff coming and overwhelming. But when people are able to start seeing themselves and seeing their views and like, okay, I need backup, I better picture of this and gather more information, that’s a huge respect. You know what I mean. Like that’s huge, it’s huge.

Jon Mayo: 25:24
And a little bit of context without getting us into any hot water. So about I don’t know, 18 months ago two years now we met in what I would consider a period of expansion right, our families met, your guys’s business was really beginning to take off and we’re going into the new building Very exciting. And then a pretty rough partnership breakup and business breakup occurred that really tested the overarching community and got very, very ugly occurred, and that’s that was an additional source in it, in addition to life and the pros and cons, but the joys and burdens of having children and trying to make a living and experience life in a way that doesn’t make you want to end it all. Like, in addition to all that stuff, stability was gone, things that were believed to be solid became vicious and the community was kind of ripped in half and it was very difficult in like every level of the spectrum from like fiscal stability, relational stability, emotional stability, psychological stability, like everything shot right and now that’s a really good analogy.

Jade Myers: 26:38
I like that, thank you.

Jon Mayo: 26:39
You know, I really like that, thank you you know, I remember I heard this guy giving a lecture once and he said people got stopped saying they’re fine because fine stands for fucked up, insecure, neurotic and emotional. And that was definitely a period of fine right. Everything was fine. But to that end, right Now we’re now we’ve moved past that in the ways that we could support or take the step back but still be available in whatever context and like work through this. And now we’re in this period of you guys are back in an expansion route, right, and it’s super excited and I intend on being there very shortly myself. But, like so now it’s kind of a beautiful timing to be on the other end of that storm and get to have this conversation and explore that, even when things are good, sometimes we like we need to be aware of the challenges that we’ll be facing. But also, like I was immensely curious, given these topics, how you’re doing your thought process through the last 18 months and jumping into this, because even your willingness to jump on and have an intentional, recorded conversation that others can listen to is an expression of vulnerability, care and love that you’re willing to invest and pay forward. So I was curious your thoughts given, given all that.

Jade Myers: 27:56
So I think, because I was very let me there’s a few questions there. Let me think back for a second. I’ve definitely gone through a lot of growth in the past 18 months. Like even right when I met you I think was like the first time I read the Mel Robbins book High Five, Habit, and I just been going through lots of different things internally for myself, just trying to figure out why am I so emotionally up and down, what are all these things? And I had postpartum depression. You know, I was diagnosed bipolar and I had PMDD things that are making you just more intense and frustrated and it was like why am I like gosh, like all these things I’m doing? And then I started like looking at everybody and you’re like, oh, my boss, for instance, you know, in that period I just quit my job right before I kind of met you guys and she controlled everything and it was like okay, like I need to remove myself from the environment, right? So then I think what it came down to was like I need to take a step back. Why am I overreacting in some of these instances? Like, why am I so like? Why is this so intense for me? And I just kept going deeper and deeper and deeper and I just kept peeling away the layers. How was I raised? How was I as a child? How did that affect me? What habits did I establish? How can I break these habits? How are my eating habits affecting me? Like, I just kept exploring, exploring, exploring, yeah, and it was just like woo, you know, it was exciting, yeah, Exciting new. I had another friend that it’s funny because we both, like, are on these similar paths and we’ve really connected with talking about similar things. Even her father stepped out of Sarasic and so, like, lots of things just connected. And so it was like, I think, with like, when you have this community, it’s like here’s something, oh, I’ll take that. Oh, here’s something over here, oh, I’ll take that. You know, like somebody gives you a book recommendation and just giving those types of things. I just kept building each thing. But the biggest thing is like realizing why am I overreacting? Did I not eat today? Am I not feeling good? What are all these things coming into play? Am I upset at my children? Why am I upset at my children? And I think, just with death too. When you find out that your father has a terminal illness, which I found out of March of 2022. And I was with Lindsay at the time too, and it was cause I was a little disappointed, right? Yeah, cause I was really disappointed you really start looking at everything because you know that their time is going to expire. So it’s like you start gathering, you start like going on like a research project. It’s what it felt like I was going to research project. I want to understand my dad. I want to understand my dad’s family more. I need to understand my mom. I need to understand my mom’s family more. I need I just kept adding pieces together. Was it dark? And like there are so much things, you’re like what the hell am I discovering? I know I’m like all over the place, but Well what you’re speaking to.

Jon Mayo: 31:12
We said it was exciting a little bit ago when you started digging into yourself and doing that inward exploration. But I’m a firm believer of the concept that the gold is like on the other side of the dragon, right. And to get to that gold you have to get past the dragon and the dragon is yourself. And I’m borrowing this, I believe, from Jordan Peterson. But if you want to live a vibrant life that may impact and create value for others first, it’s prudent to tend to yourself first, right. And when we start doing that work and start digging in, like on the other side of the dragon, I say there’s a compass that gives you the direction that you want to travel with your life, rather than gold. But it’s priceless. But there’s a bloody monster you have to get past and you have to go deep within yourself and, depending on your experiences and your life, it’s going to be hard for everyone, but how dark and deep it can go does depend on some of the things you’ve experienced. So it is exciting on one hand, but it’s also in its very exhausting, difficult, painful work that I think is worth its weight and gold and everyone. One of my goals is to help people experience that. That’s why I wrote the book. Be relentless. If the obstacles the way, we must be waymakers because if we can equip others to like, have, help them with that moment of awareness and then have kind of an idea or this framework that they can pull from what they want to navigate. What you just described of like the research product in and then learning your father had a terminal illness the research product to the family and gaining understanding on how that affects you and you can affect them and how to cherish the moments. Like. It’s heavy work but it’s high value and the risk is without being aware of how heavy or hard it may be is it could pull you too deep and you could be destroyed in that pursuit but at the same time, by avoiding it, we put ourselves at risk of a completely different type of destruction. So it’s very interesting.

Jade Myers: 33:14
Yeah, it’s a spiral. You don’t really know which way to go, because and then I think, too right, you go through these layers, and how you handle each layer you go through is a test in itself as well, just like jujitsu you know what I mean Using all your strength and you start to slow things down as you start to flow through things and like it’s OK, you know, but we’re resisting things. The biggest thing is resistance. When I found in life that I resisted, anything like that, energy came back to me. Oh you want to resist me. I’m coming up to you and so, like, with certain things, when I would resist, like I would get so frustrated with the kids, I was just like, oh, I’m just so like there’s this mess, every single thing. Like all I was focusing was on everything, you know, chaos. But then it was like, when I there’s, this woman, I followed and that’s where, like it’s so cool to like have these little things that pop up in your life and I feel like things happen for a reason too. People gravitate towards you in different ways and different things come to light. Or you might think of something and it presents itself. But I was really struggling with like just being a wife household chores, all the things you have to do with a family of six, and one of the things that that woman said was like surrendering to motherhood, like you’re going to have to do the dishes anyways, so why be bitching about it? You know what I mean. Like you’re going to have to pick up your husband’s socks off the ground, like, why bitch about it? And, honestly, like that type of perspective of like not Nick, picking every little thing that you see and also sitting with yourself, one of the biggest things I found in intense situations where I would start to get upset or something, I would just be quiet and I would process and I read it through one of my grief books and I would just sit there and I would process and then give my reaction internally, which might have been mean or whatever, right, but it was internally. Nobody had to face my reaction and I was like, oh, that was kind of harsh, you know, talking to your inner monologue. It was like, ok, what’s a better answer? And then that answer comes. But when you’re able to recognize that you’re getting upset and you’re able to slow down your reactions and just start taking those steps back, you know, and with deeper layer, realizing like it’s not the end of the world, this deep layer that you found, you know what I mean. I think sometimes with women we get a little dramatic. We’re dramatic, ok, just what it is, you know. And so we need to realize like, yes, this is heavy, you definitely need to feel these emotions, process those emotions, but this is not life and that’s time to move on from some of these things. You know, and that’s going to be a process in itself how people do that, right, everyone has different processes, of how they evaluate for themselves, given the concept of what you shared, with, you know, even picking up your husband’s socks.

Jon Mayo: 36:14
I mean, I’m guilty of some of these things which drive me up the wall too, because I work to be pretty intentional. So when I do something that is a bugaboo for my wife and then she’s like you doing this again, it kind of is like this moment for me because I’m like I swear I’m pretty dang good at changing things but for whatever reason, this is one of them. Like for me. I’m like OK, I’m going to be like. For whatever reason, this is one of them Like, for example, this is a very silly example, but Kirk, my business partner and one of my best friends, he has a dog, a golden retriever, named Hobbs. I met another golden retriever one time, many years ago named Tucker. To this day, I call Hobbs Tucker every time I see that dang dog. And it’s not this running joke, because it’s like wow, you can change just about anything about yourself, but you can’t call my dog by the right name, right? So, in the same thing, it’s a humorous way to approach it. But while we’re navigating all these things on self and I love the idea of surrender to motherhood, which I’ll touch on in a second, but there’s also what is the constructor, the, what have we agreed on is acceptable in relationship with our those whom we’re in community with right, because so much of what we’re talking about is first exploring what is acceptable in community with myself, you know, in my inner dialogue and how I approach the world and how I approach these things. And then next it’s like my spouse and my kids and then outside of the home and just kind of expands through that. But as long as it’s within the realm of acceptability that you’ve established with those individuals, it doesn’t have to match everyone else, it just has to be tolerable to what you’ve said right, yeah, yeah.

Jade Myers: 37:59
And I think that’s where, unfortunately, during those times, you may lose people. You know what I mean. Because you are going through a transformation period. You’re learning more about yourself, you’re learning things that maybe there’s certain things in your life that you just don’t want to tolerate anymore, because you’re realizing that it doesn’t set with you, like it doesn’t add value to you, and so I think, like that’s very important, I think that and not, and I feel like that’s that’s what you did, in a way, like that’s what, when I see you doing that, I see you, I know that you’re doing that in other ways in your life, because it’s like yes, like because that is for me, like when you’re able to set boundaries for yourself and like take a step back, like I mean, I was a huge people pleaser man, like I was like man, I had a doctorate and people please, and I felt like you know, I was good at it and it was just like, it was just my heart just wanted to give so much, and then I would get hurt, you know. And I think, just like realizing that that, like what can I do? I’ve stayed is like over capacity, over capacity, you know, and that capacity. I’m constantly doing too much for everybody else and nothing for myself. So then I can’t be the best wife, it can’t be the best mother, I can’t be those things for myself if I’m trying to do it for everybody. And so, again, sending those boundaries, looking at those perspectives and realizing this. One person may not be able to, may not continue in my life, but that’s OK. We’ll see if they stay or go. But you were just on the journey for yourself and continuing through it’s so important I think.

Jon Mayo: 39:36
Absolutely. It reminds me of your PhD and people, please and it reminds me of Noble Gibbons.

Jade Myers: 39:41
Exactly yes.

Jon Mayo: 39:43
Of recovering people, pleasing addict, and what a blast of a conversation we had with him and, yeah, love him and A lot of conversations with Noble and so, like it’s so funny, I mean sorry to interrupt you, john.

Jade Myers: 39:57
The one thing that Noble has talked about was external processing. And I feel like this is a huge one. I grew up in a family of internal processors, so there was not much talk. There was, it was very quiet. Now, if you know Chad, my husband, that is not a quiet man. If you know my children, those are not quiet children. So, like this word, it’s these words that pop up when you’re reading and doing these read and makes me so excited because external processing it’s like it is such a way for me to be like, why am I so overwhelmed by these people? Oh, you’re talking too much and that’s too much information coming in and my brain can’t process when. When I’m trying to process things, like you know, ok, I’m going to go here, I’m going to click on this thing, oh, let me find your name, me, I just do it. And then, but when there’s that outside chaos that you’re not used to again a habit that you lived in of quietness, you’re used to quietness. So when you, when you would focus, it had to be quiet. You’re not used to chaos and trying to focus. So you have to realize that, realizing just that itself and not getting upset, not overreacting, be like they’re just talking to that. Ok, what does Jamie mean? Ok, I need to just go take a minute to myself, go outside, just take a breather. I’m just overwhelmed and overstimulate Just realizing those things for yourself as a mother, as anything, as as just a person. You are going to make ways because you’re not just reacting to stuff anymore. You know what I mean.

Jon Mayo: 41:29
Absolutely. And like because a lot of what you’re talking about with external processing and then sensory overload is such a real thing. Right, we see it. I don’t, I don’t know, I feel sometimes I’m like OK, there’s just too much going on. Yeah, let’s shut off the stimulus. And you know, a lot of those tools come with just the awareness piece, and you’re right. So my wife is more of an internal processor as well. Chad and I are both external processors. So if I bling, yeah, so like I’ll jump on a conversation with Chad or with Kirk and we’ll have a three hour conversation, but we will solve the problem. Yeah, and then I’ll come home and the problem needs to wait a day or two so we can talk about it then and while the 15 minute conversation we will solve the problem. But in a day or two it’s like, well, that is not how I’m wired, so even like the interdimensionality of that becomes quite a roller coaster.

Jade Myers: 42:25
You know, and yes, so it’s because the example is like Chad does the thing where he’s like I’m like saying something. I’m like really, I thought like we’re having a conversation and the next minute the speaker phones going bring, bring, like where are you calling? He’s like, I guess, see how they’re doing. I’m like I’m their conversation over. Ok, yeah, that’s what he does, like you know, and I have random thoughts, right, I’m like wonder how this I’m going to call them right now, see what they’re doing. I’m like, oh, five, like five seconds, man, can you process? Slow it down?

Jon Mayo: 43:02
It’s. It’s all part of this beautiful dance we’re doing and it’s truly hilarious and really. You mentioned so surrender to motherhood and kind of the concept of like, well, what I heard in that and I’m curious to see if this is what you see in it is Focus on what you can control is essentially what I hear there and so, like, for example, you mentioned the dishes. Ok, the dishes need done anyways. Can I control that? There are dishes? No, and you done. Can I control how I’m going to respond and allow the fact that this task needs done to influence how I spend the time doing it? Yes, and even just yesterday, lindsay and I are testing. We were testing having a joint office and we just so happened to have meetings at the same time and learn very quickly that in a remote setting you cannot have two separate meetings in the same room. Just doesn’t work. So we’re both like whispering into our mics, but both yelling, and it just wasn’t good. So that evening I come up and she’s kind of like the mighty mouse. She’s a little thing, but she had a little bit of a sense of the word. She had moved a giant dresser in the TV and like a bunch of furniture. I walked upstairs and I was like holy moly, we’re moving it now and it is so her and like so we. But for whatever reason, like I don’t know some, something happened. It was like she was making dinner, so we decided to sit and talk and have a glass of wine together, and for me that that initiated the sequence of I’m done working today. We’re having this class of wine, we’re about to have dinner, we’ll put the kids down. I am passing out early mornings coming fast. I am good, this mess. We have a couch in the kitchen, that’s fine, we’ll deal with this tomorrow. And so she gets up. We finish our wine in our conversation. She gets up to keep cooking and she’s like yeah, let’s finish the room. I’m like no, what do you mean? No, this is what I thought, though, because I told her yes and I didn’t realize that, which then made me angry. So, like I’m huffing and puffing around, going to move the couch and stuff, she said why are you so angry? You said you do it. And then I thought for a second. I was like you’re right. The words that came out of my mouth were yes, but every fiber of my being was upset that this is happening right now. And I actually just went and got out and jumped into the pool. We have a buff grand pool. We just jumped into that and I, like, sat under the water for a minute and it was this exact moment of surrender to the process, right when I was thinking. I was like OK, tomorrow, how do I want to reflect on how this evening is spent and what we do? And I have a choice. I can either go back in there and be pissy and small minded and stuff and ruin our night and we’ll get it done. It’s going to suck and I’m not going to like it. No one’s going to like it or I could choose to flip the switch, yell it out under the water, get back under a semblance of control and go in there and be excited that we’re going to see that we’re in a space in life that we can repurpose this room and now have two separate offices and really celebrate her getting the space and make it something fun and stop being an ass and I chose that one to the best of my ability. I don’t know actually, how well I accomplished it, but I chose it and we went back in, had a good meal and got about doing that and I think I think it was pretty good. I actually am going to ask her after this because we’re talking about it, but that that was a direct relationship to what you’re talking about with surrender to motherhood and surrender to the situation and control what you can. I was curious how that strike you.

Jade Myers: 46:30
I think that’s really cool because there’s lots of, I think in our marriage with Chad and I, there are moments I’m the one that loses my patient more so and get frustrated. And so it’s like when, when they realize that I’m getting to the point like hey, go outside for a minute because I need that reminder to like it’s OK, go outside for a second, and I think, like that’s exactly what you did, like that’s what, but that’s part of it. Right, you realized I did say yes, but I wanted to say no, but I didn’t say yes because I love my wife. You know what I mean. But I think sometimes too, what I do is I reverse that a little bit too and I’ll say, well, moving that, my I know my wife loves moving things around, so like, sometimes, even changing it into that perspective, like this is just something she enjoys. And you know, what you got upset about was like the you had this expectation, right? Am I expecting your expectation change? And that’s like the biggest thing. Like we always use that word, like I’m always telling myself that was an expectation, jade, that was not you, that’s, that’s on you. You had the expectation, nobody else. And if you’re not communicating that, then how’s anyone to know this? You know, and so, like it gives my, it gives me more grace for myself and realizing like, ok, I figured it out, took me a little bit, I figured out the steps, but then also I’m more patient with my spouse. Now I’m more caring to my spouse. I’m not just, I’m not just you’re not just staying in your bad mood. Right, you found your outlet to find like, ok, I need a break, leave the situation figure out. Ok, I realize what it is, you know. Like I think that’s really fucking awesome. Like people can’t do that man, and that’s like the huge thing. Like I told Chad sometimes. Like, like we don’t realize, like, how grateful I am Like the people that surround us because, like there’s so many huge thinkers there and so many qualities that these people hold, but like the quality to like see yourself and like be able to like take steps back and like do these growth period, do these hard periods, but do it with, like, the suicide thing. Like I’m so open to it because people there sometimes will share things and I’ll get like, oh, why am I sharing this? Like, do I need to share this? That one thing that I might share might have saved somebody’s life just by reading something like dang, she’s wanted to kill herself. Like you know what I mean. Like there were days where I would say, like we’ll see if I make it to next year, if I’m still alive, like I honestly did not think I was going to make it, I really didn’t. And to go from that and then to be Jane now, like that’s a huge window, you know, and that’s all about just looking deeper inside. And that’s what you did, john, you know, and I think, and that’s like where, finding things that work for you, like how, like where did you? Where did you like, where do you feel? Like, what worked for you to get to that point? Like, do you think there was, like all of a sudden, this moment, or was this like a continuous thing that took you time and time to get to this point? You know what I mean.

Jon Mayo: 49:36
And to get to which moment specifically?

Jade Myers: 49:38
like get to the moment where you’re like realizing I need to go outside and take a minute.

Jon Mayo: 49:43
And so.

Jade Myers: 49:44
I don’t know if you were an explosive person before right, I don’t know. But you know I’m not aware of that, but I I would just just start yelling. You know what I mean. Like I don’t want to do that anymore, like that I feel what that does to my body. And that’s like so that’s kind of what I’m saying, you know. Like it’s just like one day it’s like oh, mom doesn’t really yell that much anymore. You know what I mean.

Jon Mayo: 50:08
So yeah, a lot, of, a lot of stuff they let’s see yeah on the explosive piece, yes, I was very explosive and I also drank a lot back in the day, which mixed that with explosiveness, and it can be even more unstable, or it definitively was more unstable and over for myself at least, over the last couple of years I’ve become very intentional and kind of rooting out and sitting in the spaces where I’m least comfortable experiencing the most pain, anger, what have you, not for the sake of masochism but for the sake of if I sit in the space where I’m anguishing, after processing it long enough, it subsides and in the calm that follows I learned a lot and I change. So it’s been this different pursuit, whether it was running a lot or you know, did you get to, you were writing or you know all these different tools to attack the same problem of further understanding and mastery of self. And I think that the skill to you this week take a step out and go collect myself, have those thoughts for the minute or so and then come back in and reengage. I think that’s just a an indicator that the efforts are paying off on a pursuit I intend on continuing in until I die, but to to wake up in real. I was like, oh, that’s how you responded. In retrospect, it is cool. And about a month ago actually, I realized that I’m at this cool place where, after about you know, three, four years of really aggressively pursuing a radical shift in who I am, I’m now more than less that person I want to be. So now I’m just pursuing, evolving and continuing that journey, Right, yeah, that’s really freeing and fun, and it was also necessary. It was also inhibiting me from continuing to grow because not acknowledging that because I was operating under this premise of I have to burn this crap off and I have to stop being this guy and I have to do this and therefore I’m going to take these actions. Right, and about like a month ago now, I had a group of guys who were part of my inner circle come over and we’re together and most everyone had left. Two guys stayed the night and I was talking with them as like, oh my goodness, Tonight I’m realizing that definitively, I’m who I set out to be and now I get to learn how to be that guy. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, so it’s like the journey no, by no means is there been an arrived situation. It’s like, oh, I’m who I want to be now and now I get to be that.

Jade Myers: 52:57

Jon Mayo: 52:58
And how to do that. Well, opposed to, I have to stop being this other thing and yeah, that was a pretty powerful moment, right.

Jade Myers: 53:07
And I feel like I had that. I don’t know when that shift was for me, but I feel like I had that moment too, just recently, and I feel like I don’t know, it’s just the energy of, like, this is a group of people, but it was the same thing where it was just like I got a. I got a shift like surrendering, the surrendering to motherhood. I needed to shift my perspective. I needed to shift how I showed up. I needed to shift and tell myself, like more so now I tell myself like damn, if I was in high school or if you told me I was in sixth grade, like, this is what you’re, this is the type of person you’re going to be, this is who you’re going to be married to, this is your kids, your kids. Person like you’re gonna be like dang, you’re kind of fucking cool, you know what I mean. Like you’re like, don’t you? Okay, why don’t I look at that? You know what I mean, we say all these nice things, all these great people, but we never say into ourselves, we rarely turn that into us. And I think, like finding that about yourself, like I, kind of like who I am, you know, I mean, like I like my chill time outside at night, I, I think it’s just like God, it’s like so magnificent when you like start to come there and, like you said, I’m not, no one has arrived, no one will have arrived to their final destination, but you can keep evolving and just keep going through and then realizing whatever new hard thing comes like I wonder I wonder what this is going to lead to. Something from this and just changing that perspective and they they talk about to like, oh man, john, that’s just really awesome, that’s just really cool. Like you should high five yourself for that Cause that was like a big moment. When you’re like coming into that and you may any year from now, you may be like dang, I evolved even more. Yeah, yeah, keep it going, keep that momentum going.

Jon Mayo: 55:04
And that’s where it’s fun, cause it’s like there’s a lot of premise in, especially when fighting addiction, with the idea of, instead of trying to just cut out the bad habit, replace it with something of higher value. And that’s what the last few years has been. But there’s still that moment of like oh, I actually rather listen to a podcast or a book most of the time. The music. Now, you know like, oh, I’d actually rather drink sparkling water than beer. You know, like there’s there’s this moment where you substitute it and you’re working on creating the value. And then there’s that moment of realization where it’s like, oh, I’ve succeeded, like I actually like this more now I prefer it. Yeah, done for my life. And and that’s really kind of what that reflection point was, and I fully agree, like what? What’s exciting is? I hope like as long as I live, the evolution continues for us, right? And it’s like now that I know who I am, I can press into allowing that to evolve. And I’m not running or trying to kill anything off anymore, I’m just trying to grow the good stuff and keep a very cognitive eye and discipline control over the other things so they don’t flare up, and that’s a very different relationship itself.

Jade Myers: 56:12
That’s a very different relationship with self and I think like once you start coming into that thing and you just start seeing to, it just gives you more grace for people. I think I’ve always had maybe too much grace for people, but now that I’ve going through this transition it just adds more light to that swap to you know, and just realizing that when somebody help people react to certain situations like I, just look like 12 steps so much deeper into it. Maybe that person broke, maybe that mom broke her arm or saw someone break her arm, that’s why she freaked out. So you know, like, obviously broken arms kind of scary, you know, but trying to I’m not very good at examples, like you guys. But things like that, though, of just realizing, like giving people more grace, of like not just being like, oh, I don’t like the way they reacted. No, like why did they react? Like what’s a deeper layer to that. Is there something there that scares you when you start thinking of those things, like you’re saying, you keep evolving. I, rather, I like this more, I prefer this more. I like went into the realization of like how was I when I was a child? How was my mental stage when I was a child? When would, when did I feel most free? That was being outside. That was looking at clouds. That was like being grounded, riding my bike everywhere in our small town. Like those are things that brought me life. When did I feel the most like just that my body felt good, because certain things I felt like I’m missing in a workout, for instance. For me like gathering all these pieces to be the best version of myself and show up for myself and for others, for my family most importantly. But when you see those things, it just keeps evolving because you keep finding ways to change it and make it better. Like you’re saying, I just had a thought and I just lost it. I’m sorry. It’ll come back.

Jon Mayo: 58:06
It’ll come back and, yeah, reflect on that. You know, one of the things that’s really interesting, and it is cool to have the freedom to just thrust into the light the things that otherwise may be hidden. Right, and remembering earlier, and even just a few moments ago, how you’re talking about, even in this pursuit, right, the battle with hitting the easy button and ending it, you know, and cutting that short, it seems like such a foreign topic to introduce into a conversation of exploration like the one that ours is evolving into being, because all these things are juxtaposed. But there’s this super powerful concept of flow which we are strong about, and so the belief that if we allow ourselves to go with where the energy kind of flows, then we’re going to see both sides of the coin. And it’s only in understanding you know, okay, I’m going this way in understanding what’s pulling me there, or what’s pushing me there, it’s in understanding the full dimensionality of that which we’re experiencing that allows us, I think, to have a more congruent experience, that is less prone to dramatic mistakes and that allows us to more healthily engage with those flash moments or sustained moments of trying to escape it all permanently, you know, through suicide.

Jade Myers: 59:36
Yeah, my thought came back. It was running. There are certain things I could keep learning about myself and like how I get anxiety and certain things and when I was a runner I didn’t have those things. And then I thinking about that and then I would like these are all the things that are going through Jade’s brain was going back to Mo Robin’s, because she always talks about like you just put on the damn shoes and get out the door and you do it, rain or shine, okay, john Mayo goes to John Mayo talking about him running outside in his little, his shory shorts, and negative degree weather I’m pretty sure at times you know what I mean snow blizzering just like, yeah, we’re doing it, man, you know. And then just like, like when you see those things and it’s cool because you’re like all these things come to play right, and then you see the person out there there’s demonstrating some of these things and showing the energy that it provides, like your morning murder mats, like how you do that, man, like if I could get there, like I love that because it’s like a different type of energy and that’s where our energies are. The same words like that, amped up, pump it out, like running, like it’s a different type of feel you get from those emotions. And so what it was like learning was like what were things like before? I had kids before? What did I used to enjoy? Do I still enjoy those things. Or is there something new? I used to really like running. Maybe I should try to do that again, like, but finding ways to get you back to that, finding ways like, okay, maybe running doesn’t work for my body as well anymore, I could dance. That’s some movement like. That is like moving my body in different ways, like just ways to express yourself with that. But realizing, like all of this, like we had to come here, we had to go through all the dark to get to where we are here. And they talk about it in this book and sorry, johnny, forget things, but it talks about there’s. They talk about a pottery bowl and the pottery bowl is broken, pottery bowls will be broken and then they would fill the rest of them in with gold. And then light, light and glimmers and moments like there’s gold, always gold, even within those cracks, because, like that’s how we’re molded. We have all these faults within this, we have all these scars and things that get us to this point, and it was just like looking at the glimmers and the beauty of light and seeing the light and different things and the light and presence and the light in yourself and things that bring light to you, like we’re talking about yeah, yeah, all that so.

Jon Mayo: 1:02:20
Yeah, I love that too and you know so. Brandon actually shot me over a quote because he’s supporting us on this call, on this, on this conversation, and it was a grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference right. And that rendition of it’s by Renhold Neuber, and you know that, that quote. I do think the source is somewhat contested because I’ve seen it sorted from a lot of places, but it’s the concept that we’re discussing right now and even choosing to repurpose how we process a stimulus right such as pain or brokenness, and with, like the pottery thing you just explained, the pots broken while someone had the vision to make this incredible artistic symbol of recreating it with gold. And now you see not only a whole version of the original item but a better one. And it wasn’t made better by being clay, it was made better by being broken and rebuilt with something of higher value. And you mentioned that. You know it gets pretty dark before it gets any better. And there’s this old adage of lights night is darkest before the dawn. And while. Why is that? And while I’m grateful for, in nature, that powerful analogy. But if you wake up at three and go for a walk and don’t walk to, the sun is rise I it does. It is amazing how it can become oppressively dark just before, first nautical light, and then the sky begins to glow, and then there’s contrast and then the sun peaks up and there’s this whole thing and a lot. I think that the default response for us is to avoid suffering and avoid the discomfort of being able to press in, because it’s not logical to think that, okay, on the other side of this pain it’s going to actually be brighter, it’s going to be better. So it creates this like unassuming, attempted avoidance, right as we try to pursue that which creates comfort and get away from that which is uncomfortable. But the unfortunate truth is or the fortunate truth is that we do have the power to press into those things, even though we know it’s going to get way worse before it gets better. But the reward is when it gets better. It’s not a cheap and fleeting pleasure to distract us, but a deep and resonating peace that we can build upon, and that’s kind of the gift.

Jade Myers: 1:04:55
Yeah, yeah, Because I’m going to go into signup like when we talked about. I’m so sorry, John, I forget the words. What’s the word that you use when you would have these moments where you would think of killing yourself or these things would come into play?

Jon Mayo: 1:05:10
Yeah, I called the sirens call.

Jade Myers: 1:05:12
Sirens call, sirens call. Like there are moments where my father, my father-in-law, had a massive heart attack and he passed out or he died. My mother called and panicked on the phone. So then it comes like things like after that instant, it was just like I was just terrified of things. We got in a car accident shortly after that. So every time I got into a car, every time I drove to, jiu Jitsu, which was at that time was way out in the middle of nowhere, in pain, you know, like big open area, I just always thought we were going to die. Like I always thought we’re going to die in a lot of those things for some reason. But then, like the suicidal ideations were like the ones where you would see yourself in these places, like we lived in when we lived in Pensacola, florida. I was, I think I had gotten out of my depression and then slipped right back into another one, and so it just I would dream of, I would like think about it almost every day, like I could hate myself or I could shoot myself in this back shed the kids don’t go out there anyways, you know what I mean. Like that was like a thing that just came constant, constant, constant, constant. And it got into the point where it was like this is not going away, like I don’t know what to do anymore. Chad was going through his training very intense, hard training for the cybersecurity and things like that and I was just like living this absolute nightmare Over here. The kids were young, it was overwhelming. Going to the beach was like I thought that was like an easy task. That was an easy task, like that was 2019. Like I wanted to die, like that was just the thought I had all the time. And then it just started, you know, from there it went into other things and it just went into like I would know where the gun was. It’s like, oh, I could do that today. You know, like it just kept coming over and over and then. But then, like now, it’s crazy to think that those were even a thought you know what I? mean, and it’s crazy to think like it’s so easy for me just to speak those words now when back then, like I didn’t tell anybody you know what I mean I was just living in this shadow of thinking that this is just what’s going to happen next. Like you know, I don’t know it’s. It’s crazy how, like I guess it’s just a fact to show that, like, even when we do have some of these really hard moments that like realizing like times are going to get better, things are going to change for us you know what I mean Like you just have to redirect what you’re viewing and how you’re viewing it.

Jon Mayo: 1:08:02
And we have the power to choose that right and and that’s one of the gifts is once we realize we can shift that and with you know the radical vulnerability of sharing just the thoughts you just did with the shed and the other things. The question that came to mind is right after a thought, because I didn’t want to share a thought. But the question so can be percolating is is just curious, like how you navigated out of that right Because, like my, my experience with with my own has been more sporadic, because I’ve been more prone to anger and and pain in my darker days than ending it. So for myself it’s been a sporadic episode and then I’ll go away and then later it’ll like come back completely randomly, and that’s why I got angry this last time is because it hadn’t happened in years. And well, it hadn’t happened in over a year and things were really solid. I’m driving down the road and, oh my gosh, what am I doing? And you know I’m doing it. My mind’s running the scenarios out, and then I’m like whoa, never again. And I made that oath to myself and I was angry because I realized it wasn’t me anymore and it would not be tolerated and that was a choice that I had evolved to being able to have the strength to make that and then talking about it now, solidifying and anchoring that into reality. But the thing that comes to mind for me is when we start to flirt with things that are new or start to experiment with things that are new, they grow in strength, prevalence and repetition, right. So the idea of like going and getting on the mats for Jiu Jitsu if you’ve never done it and this is a positive thing it’s terrifying. It’s like very uncomfortable. Once you’ve, once you’ve really pursued it for a while, you’re like, you’re like ready to jump in Period, like you’re in spandex and you’re just like, let’s go now, let’s just jump in. I don’t know you, but I’ll roll with you. And next thing, you know you’re entangled with a complete stranger. Yeah, and you know, in the same capacity, what starts with. Maybe one drink can grow into a disorder or not. Right, and everything can be taken out of context doesn’t mean it will, but like, even with those thoughts, or like with flirting with someone when you’re in a committed relationship or things like that, it’s like the threshold and the thrill of it being new, or the fear of it being new kind of, becomes its own allure, that begins to beckon you in. And that’s why I call it the sirens call, because it’s like this what is this? There’s this mystery, there’s this pole that if you don’t become cognizant and aware of what it is you’re facing, it can, it can break you right. And, sirens, there’s this old, just in case there’s someone who’s not aware, with why, what the heck is a sirens call, there’s this folks tale for sailors right Through our time beware of the sirens call. And it was essentially this idea that these, like beautiful women from the sea would sing this irresistible song that would just draw you in and you and sailors, as they were going, they’d hear the song and just be overcome with the sensation of elation and curiosity. So they’d steer the ship towards the music because and they’d see these beautiful women they’d want to know what it, why are you singing? What does this mean? They just be captivated and it would break and they would be on the rocks and it would ship this, it would sink the ship and everyone would drown and that, and so, like they were not good creatures, like the idea was that they’re actually wanting just to take all of your things, so they would lure you in as bait and kill you essentially, and that’s the sirens call. So, like, there’s this idea of like, oh boy, you know what am I being like unintentionally drawn into, and what are these sensations I’m feeling and how are they growing over time, and then when do I become aware of them? And then how the heck do you get out of it? Right, which is part of the personal experience, which comes back to the question with that period in 2019, where that those thoughts you mentioned, they’re kind of growing more frequently and they want to go away. And then now you can’t believe, you thought like that. First of all, congratulations, yeah, thank you for sharing. Yeah, but then what was that walk out of? Because since 2019, we’ve walked through, you know, there’s all the kiddos we’ve walked through in our differing forms, the really tough business chapter, right, and all these things, and yet that part of you has fallen off. So I imagine that there’s some value in exploring how, what you did, how you explored, how you navigated that as an individual, right During that season.

Jade Myers: 1:12:35
Well, and, and that was like first, when you talked about the science, science call, I really liked how you, I really liked that analogy and that really are the story. And that’s interesting, because science call like when you use the word before, to me it only meant suicidal ideations. But science call is so much more than just that. I didn’t realize it till really. Just that, just that. So that’s really cool. I’m going to go back into that later. No, I think, because so with I have always had like PMDD, which is premenstrual dysphoria disorder. So like a week before your period you’re bad. So like every month before my period I would go into like these rages, like manic phases, wanted to leave Chad. I just was like it was like everything was hitting me at once, I was just getting, I was just getting shot up. Pretty much is how it felt every month on the dot and and through that thing. So I ended up seeing a psychiatrist and they diagnosed me saying you know, I think you have. You have anxiety disorder, your bipolar, you know you got all these things going on here, some medications, and so we went through a lot of different processes. I went through like a whole kind of mean treatment. I did like six initial six. You know you do two every three weeks and the kind of mean treatment just kind of helps shake up things in your brain to help get them maybe moving again, to settle them back down. And so I went through all these things. I was seeing a therapist and, honestly, like the therapist, like man, those are like the hardest times at a very hard job during the time, but it was just the consistency. That’s all I could really say because I was still drowning in that in that time. You know, it was a hard time for our marriage, for Chad and I. Like we had to go through some really tough things and it was just realizing, I think, at the end of it, like Jade, what do you want? I mean, I got so angry at the end of 2019, like I punched a hole in the drywall. I kicked a hole, I punched it like I like unleashed on it and I just got done learning all about kickboxing I knew lots about kickboxing at that time Like I just had so much anger inside of me like holy shit, where is this coming from? That you just want to rip apart a wall. You know what I mean. Like that’s not normal behavior for a woman Like I don’t know you know, that’s true, right, yeah. And so it was just like I need to do something for myself. And so, just little step by step, did I struggle, 100%, fucking percent. But the only thing I can say was my therapy appointments were consistent. I took my medicine and then I just started to realize, listening to my body and realizing, like I’m not sure that this is helping. You know what I mean? And I think, like from 2019, 20, you know, up to 21, like those were like two and a half years were just rough. Really, I’m for me. I honestly thought I got killing myself every month, like a week. That was the reality of it. It was just rough and I did not know what to do. I just kept. Chad was just like the constant People, constantly probably like people are like overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly, maybe checking on you. You know what I mean. I was just trying to distract you from other things instead of you figuring out what was really wrong. It really wasn’t until the end of 21 where, yes, I still was doing all these things, but then it was like you had to go deep, you had to go through those deep layers, you had to go through all these things. Have you heard of Splunkna? Have you heard of that?

Jon Mayo: 1:16:55
I’m not familiar.

Jade Myers: 1:16:57
Okay, it’s like a spiritual thing, but they talk about, they test you with tapping energies and they go into talking about God and different things like that. I had this Splunkna done with a friend and it talked about emotions, that you hold your consciousness and unconsciousness and how you hold things in your body. She did this for me and I was skeptical. I’m like I’ll try this hokie-pokie crap, whatever. Through that experience I realized how much my body was resisting and how much she couldn’t get past. This is very hard to explain in a way to demonstrate, because you’re putting your arm out and she’s like tapping and she’s trying to release whatever tension and things that you have through these tapping things that they do Internally inside. Internally, I was resisting, I was resisting 100% and she couldn’t clear it until I surrendered to it. For me, that was like what else is my body holding onto? That just opened up a whole other spectrum. I changed the way I eat. I changed the way I eat. I changed the way I eat. There’s just like so I’m sorry, I’m like getting overwhelmed.

Jon Mayo: 1:18:16
I think it’s okay, yeah, One of the things. With what you’re talking about we don’t have to press too far, but there’s a lot of power here and I appreciate your willingness to share it a lot, because with those things there’s normal is a weird word and you’re like that’s not normal for a lady. I think that there’s a lot of things where it’s like. There’s a lot of things that are normal. These ideations, these struggles, these pains are normal. The problem is they don’t feel normal. The issue is there’s a big difference between normal and healthy. It’s like well, it’s natural, so it’s good for you. Well, cyanide’s natural, you can get it out of almonds. Is it good for you? No, cyanide will kill you. It’s like normal doesn’t necessarily mean good. It just means that maybe it’s a common shared human experience. And in acknowledging that, there’s more freedom to do the rest of what needs done With spongenize, you’re describing it with the work of digging deep with all those things. One of my critiques so an unsolicited testimonial from someone who’s unqualified of a lot of the pharmaceutical industry in which we live, this pharmaceutical age where everyone’s medicated so heavily is that we’re in fairness. I know there’s times where it’s life changing in a hugely positive way, but I think that we’re defaulting to what we hope is a cure all magic pill, instead of equipping and walking through and doing the hard work to address the issues. If you have an imbalance medically, chemically and you’re able to correct that, that’s amazing. If you have this rage inside, in these emotions, that’s not whole branch. I would safely argue that there’s an immense amount of value in learning how to navigate and understand and resolve that head on, opposed to trying to avoid it and get away from it. That’s where I was picking up from. What you were sharing is you were going through the blender of that cycle and then finally, over the last year and a half to years, you’re, as I’m, going to go deep. And then going deep. Over the last year and a half to years, you began to find freedom. You began to create freedom for yourself by actually resolving and releasing and surrendering and letting go, by pressing. But you could only let go once you had pressed in enough to identify the discomfort in the problem and then you could choose oh why? Look at you, You’re ugly. This is a painful ugly part of me that’s hurting me. I’m going to let this go and I’m choosing to. I’m going to choose to begin to shape my life through diet, through exercise, through all these things, through relationships, through who I’m in community with, to cultivate this healthier version of self I’m pursuing. And in that way, light begets light. So that’s at least what I was reflecting on thinking as we’re walking through that. What is that?

Jade Myers: 1:21:26
100% and I’ve been medication free for a year now. I got off all my medication as of last year and you said it, you said it perfectly, gabor Mati. He talks about that. The medication is there to start the real work. You get over that hump. It’s not there to numb you and things. And I did numb the agents, I drank a lot, I did other things because it was the only way I felt like I could let go of that reality, because it was too hard to hold on to. It was too hard to live. It was too hard to navigate in some of those moments. You can navigate, but now, everything you said, john yes, that’s what I’m doing and letting go. I have a tattooed on me Let go. This is what we choose. And this is what we chose, and that, with every step is just another step, every layer, and realizing it and accepting it, choosing to accept it, like you said, it’s huge. You can move mountains when you choose to accept those things. And I chose to surrender my motherhood of this is what it is, and I chose to surrender these deep emotions and realizing they will go away. They’re not there forever. And one of the biggest things, too, is when I was starting getting over upset. Mel Robbins talked about it like I’m not going to think about that. I’m not going to think about it. When I did start to have those ideations again back in 2021, after I spread that book in January, I just had to keep going back to those times. It’s hard to remember those things for me. My brain’s all over the place. But I’ve dived even deeper into ADHD now. I barely knew nothing five years ago. I now know so much more about myself and how that presents in women versus boys and men and children, and just keep diving deeper, and it’s OK when you might find some dark shit take a little break. It’s OK to be like I think I’m going to wait a little bit, give myself some time and then maybe go into the next thing you want to discover. But just keep discovering and keep learning and learning about yourself. And it’s OK that you change because we’re metamorphosis, changing right, like we’re constant and just allowing that, surrendering yourself to that, embracing that. The same with women and menstrual cycles, like we dwell so much in our menstrual cycle and this other woman talked about embracing your motherhood like this is a great time you get to cleanse your body. It’s like, yeah, I do get to cleanse my body. I have such this negative stigma on that and I’m putting negative energy into me. right, whatever negativity you keep saying to yourself, if you keep telling yourself, maybe I should kill myself, you might actually do it right, but redirecting this thought always, sometimes, you know, yeah.

Jon Mayo: 1:24:29
Yeah, we have to, we have to. One of the things that I’ve been like chewing on, thinking about right is being more intentional on what we consume, mentally right, because it’s super easy to say, ok, I eat this food from this restaurant, I feel like trash, I’m not going to eat that anymore, and like, over time that gets better. But information we’re feeding ourselves. There’s this adage from the Bible that’s man doesn’t live off bread alone. And if we think about that in other contexts, it’s like, well, what we consume idea wise, thought, wise, stimulus, wise is directly influencing our psyche, in just the same way that our food is influencing our body. And because we’re physical beings, our body also influences our psyche and then our psyche influences what we do with our body. And there’s this cycle. You know, and we’re trapped in this cycle, that if we are intending to intentional on what we allow in and what we think about, you know, oftentimes we explore like, oftentimes I’m exploring the idea of, ok, if I have a thought, it’s going to influence what I say and what I think and speak, is a haptic feedback loop that’s fortifying a certain perception over time, which will at some point begin to influence my actions and once I start doing the things that this feedback loop has created between my thoughts and my words, that’s going to very swiftly begin to define who I am, because after how long of doing something, is that who you are? Right versus a blip? And you know there’s there’s that thought heavily resonating and what we’re talking about you mentioned, sometimes you may discover something really dark. Right, like we started, like we were having a fairly, a very real, very real conversation and with the hope and intention that it creates life and love and unity and freedom for those who engage in it with us. Right, that’s one of the things that I’ll mention when I introduce the show and also that I know from our conversations. Coming into it is hey, I want to do this because it may free someone from making the wrong choice and have the awareness that they can begin to climb and live a better life. Right, the, the intent is to kill the darkness and the lies so that life and freedom can pour in Right, and in that pursuit, when we’re doing that hard work, we may find something that is very, very like you mentioned, very dark and heavy and it’s beyond our capacity to engage in it. Right, then, yeah, and at that point we can let it go until we return to it. And that reminded me of a of a quote from James Clear, so I pulled it up. I want to share it real quick. I think that there’s a simplistic beauty to it, but it’s water never complains, but always pushes back. Always drop a boulder in front of a stream and the water will simply flow around it, taking whatever opening the landscape will give or when nothing is offered, patiently building up its resources until it rises to a height where a new gap is found. Flow like water, never complain, but always push back Right.

Jade Myers: 1:27:28
That’s good.

Jon Mayo: 1:27:29

Jade Myers: 1:27:29
Yeah, yeah.

Jon Mayo: 1:27:33
And in the same capacity. It’s like when we’re doing this work and this journey so that we can become better versions of ourselves, so we can pour out and engage in life more freely with those we love and are in community with what happens when you run into something real, I can’t deal with that right now. There’s not a chance. Better with the show me. Well, it’s okay, we’ve identified it, we do not succumb to it. We’ve resisted it and we say, okay, not now, but at some point. We focus on what we can control and at some point our strength will rise to the point where we can engage in it. And that is exactly what happened with me with drinking. I now have, I think, a healthy relationship with alcohol. I’m able to enjoy it as a social inhibitor, but elevator from time to time, and I feel an immense amount of self-control and I’m very happy about it. But for a long time it was a crutch. I used to numb and hide and pass the time for many reasons and when I started this journey, when I had my moment of like I need to change a lot Right, and I knew immediately you’re going to need to stop drinking for a long period of time and I was like there’s not a chance in hell I can face that right now. So I, without knowing this quote or without knowing it, I was like I’m going to get to you, you’re, I’m going to get to you, but not today. Yeah, in three years later I finally got to it and then I took over a year off and now I’m in a pretty dangered spot. That I’m grateful for, but it like I had to prioritize what I had the strength to deal with and face with that first.

Jade Myers: 1:29:03
And I was like, yeah, I think that’s really great because I think, just knowing your capacity, one of the things I said the other day one of the kids asked for something and Chad’s dad was around and I was it was towards the end of the day and I was like you know, I would love to do that, but I am just at capacity, you know. And his dad was like dang Jay’s, like my mom would have just yelled at me. You know what I mean. And so it was just like again finding grace, to realize like I know what I can handle and I know maybe that one’s too much, but it’s then giving you grace to if you felt like you could handle it and you did it. Hey, it’s okay. Maybe next time, you know, like don’t get beat up on yourself. That dang. I thought I was really ready for that. You know, I think people get upset and get hung up on those things too at times as well. But yeah, that thing, that was really great, that was good, that was good, yeah, yeah.

Jon Mayo: 1:30:04
And you know, talking about that grace piece. One of the things that I’m beginning to toy with is if, like, there’s a habit that I’m less fond of, right, let’s say, for example, 99% of the time I’m very happy with my, with when I consume minadope beverage, right, okay. And then there’s a time where I have a drink and I’m like, why the heck did I just do that? And I’m disappointed because it’s like that’s not the new me, that was the old me peeking out for a while. That type of instance just made me feel bad, right. So, like I, I’d get after myself. I’m like, oh, that’s not happening again. Burn it out. And for the first time, just like just this week, that actually happened and I and I the next morning, actually later that night and again the next morning, I was reflecting on it and, instead of becoming angry, I asked why, why is it that now, being who I am now, I did that, and when I asked why, instead of just punishing myself to further the distance from who I was to who I want to become, when I asked why and I explored it, I discovered a whole slew of observations that helped me to better respond and continue to engage in the circumstances I’m in. So it became a trigger for greater awareness instead of just something to be avoided. And that was very interesting and by no means you know not advocating that I go and slip up for that, but when, when we are human and we do do things, and then we’re like why the heck did I do that? That’s the right question in my mind. Why the heck did I just do something I know I don’t like doing? And then sitting in that space and allowing the response to reveal itself was very free and pretty cool.

Jade Myers: 1:31:45
Yeah, yeah, and I think both a small example, right, I’m like really trying to be conscious of what I put in my body and things and we went to the fairground yesterday and they had like this little place that had cream soda that they often they make themselves, and I was like I don’t drink soda, I’m like a water and I drink chai. I love chai, but you know, that’s kind of it for me now and I’m like I just want that. And later that day, a year, year and a half ago, I’d have been like, so, like gosh, you made such a bad decision. What were you thinking? Now, your whole day, your body’s all messed up. Well, if I keep telling you my body it’s messed up, it’s going to be messed up. So, again, redirecting that and like, and I told myself, if I just want to have one of those cream sodas, I think it’s going to be okay, because I know I’m not going to become a habit of this, right, yes, I’m going to become a habit and and it was like they know, it made it more enjoyable. You know what I mean.

Jon Mayo: 1:32:48
I’m really, I’m really glad you brought that up, because that’s the other side of it, right and like, and that’s not the side I just spoke to you. You just said the point of sometimes, too, when we become so intentional and focused on working through transforming, growing and you can punish yourself for a simple pleasure that you may be perfectly okay to experience if given the freedom like you just described.

Jade Myers: 1:33:10
Yeah, but like when we but but people will put themselves. You know, people with eating disorders like we have to like think of, like how deep some of these things go. If, like, for instance, I read today one of a habit of like an ADHD person is like you get hyper focused on food, so sometimes they’ll tend to overeat and different times, or if you’re not eating at all, it’s because you’re hyper focusing, maybe on something else and so, like, in the times like I’m sure there’s, you’re going to be pissed at yourself. But you know, I would get so upset like, oh, I’d wait too much of that, and I was like, no, I’m going to be better tomorrow, I’m going to make a better choice for myself tomorrow, but I enjoyed it, it’s good. I know what it does to me tomorrow, make better choices, you know so.

Jon Mayo: 1:33:57
And there’s a spectrum of freedom there for sure. At the onset you had mentioned you had a couple of questions. Were we able to work through those?

Jade Myers: 1:34:07
Yes, so, oh, the one question, well, the one question I had for you too, was like this sirens call when it seems like just from that little snippet that you guys had put out, it seemed like you were, you like got so angry at yourself. You know what I mean Like when you explained it. But there were, there were more layers to that and you explained those layers and I and it and it humbles me too on a point, because I’m like, oh, why is John getting so upset over that? Like he needs to learn this, did it, you know in my head right Processing, but no, you, you already figured out that just some of the context was missing right. But like just the way you explained it, of saying that, like these are things that you’re like unintentionally drawn to, not just the suicidal ideations, these other things in life but you got mad at yourself in a way like, but it wasn’t like you’re getting mad at yourself, you were just like, hey, yo, we talked about this man. Like we’re not doing this, you’re like you’re talking to a person who’s addicted to drugs. You know what I mean? That’s what it is. Addiction is very it’s bad. It’s really bad in all types of forms you know, and yeah and so, but anyways, just how you went into that and how you like gave the deeper layers to like explaining it more of like realizing, like now you know it, how can I control it, how can I stop it, you know, and like telling yourself no, we’re not doing this, we’re not doing this, but it was, it was cool you answered that question for me. Yeah, I think so Go ahead.

Jon Mayo: 1:35:43
Well, I was going to say it’s been an absolutely beautiful exploration of thought and we’ve tackled quite a bit. I mean we’ve we’ve gone down some deep roads and done a lot of good work together and I absolutely loved how this conversation came to be, because Friday Friday that thought expedition episode 59 was released. You text me, I think Monday, that you’d listen to it and you wanted to talk through some like cryptic, sporadic messages we exchanged. It brought us to like, okay, yeah, let’s talk Thursday. Were you wanting to explore it or record? And oh, we’re recording. And here we are and we just had a phenomenal almost two hour conversation going through quite a bit. So I’m kind of getting the sense we’re at a good spot where we could high five and continue on another day and just want to see if you had any parting thoughts.

Jade Myers: 1:36:40
No, I just I’m just like very thankful for I’m happy that you have the confidence in yourself and the willingness to want to share those hard things, because that’s not easy. It’s very hard for anyone to ever want to share any types of information. But to be like you know, you’re just growing in this, in this nurturing thing and not nurturing. You’re growing in yourself and like helping others to like it’s okay, like we got different perspectives and letting others see it and bringing other people’s views right, just like you’re talking to other people. It’s really cool. John, I’m like really proud of you and I see all the momentum that you’ve created the past since we’ve known you, and it just keeps getting better and better. I can’t wait to see where you go.

Jon Mayo: 1:37:24
So oh goodness, thank you so much, and thank you for your courage and radical vulnerability and willingness to share and fight your way into a place where we got to do this today. It’s been an absolute blast and I cannot wait till the next time we sit down and talk. Sounds good, awesome, thank you All right, and that is the show. Thank you so much for listening. If you found value in today’s episode, please pay it forward. You can do that by liking and following the show, liking and following us on social media or sharing this episode with someone you care about. All of these things help more than I can put into words, and each action taken to help us spread the word is greatly appreciated. So, once again, from all of us here at the ULA and Be Relentless Podcast, thank you for joining us in the journey as we seek to lead maximized lives.

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