Episode 48 from The Grit Theory. 

Nicole “Nicci” Salvatrice Bosco is a ultra-marathoner, businesswoman, adventurer and a true WAYMAKER. We start our conversation by examining how the Grit Theory is changing which transitions neatly into Nicci’s belief that “you have to believe in a finish line that you cannot see”. From there Nicci shares part of her story and we get to play with several concepts that left of us both grateful for having spent the time together. 

Here is a sneak peek at a few of the idea’s that we explored: 

– Being guided by roadblocks. 
– Believing in a finish line that you cannot see. 
– Despair and joy, and why they are connected. 
– Finding a place inside of you that you can go in moments of adversity. 
– Get curious in the moments that hurt you. 
– Believing in the extraordinary. 

The runs that Nicci has conquered: 

– October 2017 “Indian Creek Fifties” in Sedalia, CO Human Potential Running series (HPRS), 50 miler finished in 14:27
 – October 2018 “Bromont 100” in Quebec, CA, DNF at Mile 60
 – October 2018 “Javelina 100” in Phoenix, AZ DNF at Mile 60
 – July 2019 “Silverheels 100” with HPRS in Fairplay, CO,
finished and won the award “DFL  dead
fucking last”
 – August 2019 “Squamish 50” In Vancouver, CA, 50 miles
Finished in 13:47
 – September 2020 “Sangre de Cristo 200” in Westcliffe, CO
with HPRS, finished 208 miles in 104 hours
 – Ultrarunner of the year award from HPRS 2020
 – 2021 all with HPRS
 – Stories Ultra -26miler
 – We Belong Virtual ultra -50k
 – Niwots – DNF at mile 23
 – Endure – 28 miler
 – Sheep Mountain 50 miler
 – Indian creek fifties -50k
 – Sawmill – 17miler
 – Also awarded 2021 HPRS Volunteer of the year award

Also, check out Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be waymakers HERE.

Do you want to learn more? Check out:

The Book: Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be WayMakers.

The Podcast: “Be Relentless Podcast”

The Fuel: Sisu Stamina, Performance Evolved

Linktree: Here.

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Episode Transcript

00;00;08;23 – 00;00;39;09
Jon
Well. Hello, everyone. You are in for a treat. I had an absolute blast today sitting down with Nicci. We talked about her journey through athletics to ultimately ultramarathons and how that journey’s really more transformed to for the self opposed to just the athletics or the metrics of what’s accomplished in those great feats. And we explore a lot of ideas and concepts such as you have to believe in the finish line you can’t see.

00;00;39;24 – 00;01;06;18
Jon
And this symbiotic relationship of despair and joy in how they’re the same and one can’t exist without the other. So we really enjoyed it. Pulled a lot of value from it. And hope you do as well. If you do Please remember that I’m no longer trying to grow this through posts and all that other type of jazz, but just focusing in on having these cool, vibrant life, giving high quality conversations.

00;01;06;29 – 00;01;38;16
Jon
And it is very helpful for me to hear positive feedback or constructive criticism from you, as well as to have you share the show. And if you don’t share it today with whatever strikes you, then that opportunity’s lost forever. So taking the intentional pause to do that is extraordinarily appreciated. Taking the pause to send a message is very appreciated and taking the time to subscribe and do a review is a gift to me that I really cherish.

00;01;39;14 – 00;01;44;08
Jon
So without further ado, let’s jump in to the amazing conversation that Nicci and I shared today.

00;01;49;20 – 00;01;54;22
Jon
Sitting in person. Those just super fun to me because, yes, you get the facial expressions, the body language.

00;01;55;06 – 00;01;57;20
Nicci
All that jazz. 100% for sure.

00;01;59;13 – 00;02;21;23
Jon
But yeah, the like we talked before, the show’s always evolving. And I’ve really been getting intentional lately. On trying to break away from having it be a show, if you will, like me, because I was I was doing things for it on social media. I had the website where I was making all these things and I realized, like, I starting to do what I thought needed done.

00;02;22;07 – 00;02;44;23
Jon
Huh. Versus what I started for which was was to have intentional, courageous, candid conversations in the pursuit of better. Right. Just like sit down with someone who’s interesting and explore and see. And then, like, what’s nice is the recording kind of focuses the intentionality of it. But then it also allows, like, you and I have a phone conversation, someone else can listen in.

00;02;44;28 – 00;02;46;21
Jon
Yeah, it shares it.

00;02;47;04 – 00;02;49;13
Nicci
Yeah. Yeah. So I love that.

00;02;49;21 – 00;02;50;27
Jon
I’ve stopped posting.

00;02;51;17 – 00;02;55;28
Nicci
Wow. Yeah. Good for you. A like on Instagram. Yes.

00;02;56;00 – 00;03;03;17
Jon
I deleted him off of my phone. I have the accounts. I posted some things like saying, Hey, go downstairs, sir.

00;03;06;04 – 00;03;22;26
Jon
Excuse me for that. The. That’s why she’s down there, because she didn’t want that happen. But, yeah, I decide to stop posting altogether. I let everyone know, like, hey, if you liked it, join it on the podcast. Medium sort the website. Right. And I decided just to focus on the conversations.

00;03;23;03 – 00;03;24;21
Nicci
Good for you. And how’s that going?

00;03;25;02 – 00;03;29;08
Jon
Um, well, this is the first person I’ve gotten to talk to since making the decision.

00;03;29;09 – 00;03;29;21
Nicci
Okay.

00;03;29;28 – 00;03;49;29
Jon
But I can already feel the pressure releasing of, like, trying to check the block if you want to think. Yeah, because when you do the posts, when you do that, it’s hard to let go of the showmanship. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And so, like, I just. I didn’t want to compete with it. Yeah. I didn’t want to waste energy there.

00;03;50;00 – 00;03;53;18
Jon
I wanted to be able to sit down and say, like, hi, Nicci, and s talk.

00;03;53;23 – 00;03;59;03
Nicci
Go for you. You know? Yeah. Yeah, that’s tough to realign for. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

00;04;00;02 – 00;04;01;03
Jon
It’s not been easy.

00;04;01;07 – 00;04;06;22
Nicci
Yeah. But because you can make the argument that the posts are still in service of.

00;04;06;29 – 00;04;07;09
Jon
Mm hmm.

00;04;07;26 – 00;04;28;17
Nicci
In service of your mission, in service of yourself, and in service of sharing this. And at the same time, there’s all of this other these other feelings culturally and even within yourself, laced on top of Instagram. So it’s it’s tough. So I’m excited to see where this goes for you.

00;04;29;02 – 00;04;44;15
Jon
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You know, it part of it, too, was like the reevaluation of do I even want to keep doing this? Like, what am I serving? Mm hmm. Because I try to do a lot and I start to feel a little burn as well. Is it that I don’t enjoy this or is it that I’m doing the wrong thing with it?

00;04;44;15 – 00;04;57;03
Jon
It’s transformed. I don’t feel it is gradual change. And and I’m sure at some point there will be more of a presence in more places. Hopefully not steered by me, frankly, so that I because I really want to protect why I’m doing it.

00;04;57;06 – 00;04;57;19
Nicci
Yeah.

00;04;57;20 – 00;05;03;17
Jon
Which is kind of a selfish reason to have these good conversations. And then there’s the less selfish part sharing it.

00;05;03;17 – 00;05;30;22
Nicci
So, yes, it’s like, yes, well, yeah, maybe it’s selfish, but that pursuit innately makes all of us better, right? If you think about like people that you’re inspired by or that you look to that you’re you’re simply creating that energy force for others, regardless of whether you’re looking to that or not, you’re demonstrating the standard.

00;05;32;21 – 00;05;45;19
Jon
Any way of looking at it. And it’s kind of fun too, because in this period I was like, Well, if I’m going to do it, if I get any positive feedback from just even a handful of people, I’ll keep at it and keep focusing in on what matters. And it’s kind of cool because yesterday I got an email.

00;05;45;21 – 00;05;46;07
Nicci
Yeah, I.

00;05;46;07 – 00;05;49;25
Jon
Got, you know, so it’s like, All right, I think I’m finding True North again.

00;05;49;27 – 00;05;50;20
Nicci
Yes. You know.

00;05;50;20 – 00;05;51;28
Jon
Just removing distraction.

00;05;52;02 – 00;05;52;18
Nicci
Yes.

00;05;52;23 – 00;05;56;20
Jon
And it’s kind of fun. It’s like becoming more pure. Mm. Which is neat.

00;05;56;25 – 00;06;02;23
Nicci
Maybe pure and close. Cos it more closely aligned with your values.

00;06;02;23 – 00;06;03;20
Jon
Yeah, that’s fair.

00;06;04;07 – 00;06;05;05
Nicci
Does that feel.

00;06;05;06 – 00;06;29;26
Jon
Yeah, it does. Well, I’ve been struggling to lately, like looking at social media. I think there’s so much power in Instagram and Facebook and all those things. But right now the culture of them is and how the algorithms are like tuned. They don’t aim at that positive influence. So, like, part of what I was realizing is I talk about a B on social media less, and then I’m like posting a bunch of stuff on social media sites like this feels wrong.

00;06;30;12 – 00;06;31;17
Jon
It feels like counter-intuitive.

00;06;31;18 – 00;06;34;14
Nicci
Yes. Like, how are these two things the same?

00;06;34;16 – 00;06;35;02
Jon
Correct.

00;06;35;03 – 00;06;35;13
Nicci
Yes.

00;06;35;19 – 00;06;41;18
Jon
And it’s like, well, I’m feeding the same drug. I I’m trying to encourage myself and others not to do. And I was like, I don’t like that.

00;06;41;19 – 00;06;42;22
Nicci
Yeah. Yeah.

00;06;42;23 – 00;06;50;12
Jon
So it may be slower. It may it may not go as far. Who knows? At least that’s the narrative now, right? If you’re not on there, you won’t be anything.

00;06;50;13 – 00;06;50;26
Nicci
Yes.

00;06;51;03 – 00;07;03;17
Jon
But I was like, well, I already have a website. Mm hmm. I have. It’s this thing goes on just about every podcasting platform you can find. Let’s just see if that’s a lie.

00;07;03;18 – 00;07;04;02
Nicci
Yeah.

00;07;04;02 – 00;07;05;00
Jon
And we’ll see what happens.

00;07;05;01 – 00;07;25;26
Nicci
It’s like you’re following the breadcrumbs, like you can’t see you know, 20 feet in front of you, but you can see your next step and your next step because you’re guided and you’re in your alignment to like what you are trying to be in service of. My sister and I have a little dry erase board on our fridge that we put a new coat on every Monday morning.

00;07;25;26 – 00;07;41;09
Nicci
And she put one up there this week that she got from she started a new job with Adecco Staffing. Okay. And they share quotes with the team and stuff. And this one’s really struck her and I think it maybe will resonate with you you have to believe in a finish line you can’t see.

00;07;41;20 – 00;07;46;17
Jon
Hmm. I like that Ooh, that’s fun.

00;07;46;18 – 00;07;55;22
Nicci
You probably have heard that said a million different ways and like the sentiment of it, but just those words put just like that. Felt really right.

00;07;56;19 – 00;07;57;26
Jon
Yeah, I’m going to jot that down.

00;07;57;27 – 00;07;58;07
Nicci
Yeah.

00;07;58;20 – 00;08;05;26
Jon
You have to believe in a finish line. You can’t see this sentiment that jumps out to me is like, find the join the journey Mm hmm. Right.

00;08;05;26 – 00;08;41;24
Nicci
Yes, yes. Yeah. And that’s what took me really a lot. I say a long time. I’ve only been in the ultrarunning sport for like four or five years, but really, it was took me a while and was a profound learning that the event in the race itself is merely like the North Star is directionally important, that I can wake up every day and at 4 a.m., go in the cold, put my socks and shoes on and be motivated to do that because I’m directionally in service of this event.

00;08;42;08 – 00;08;50;04
Nicci
But the person that is doing that every day is the person really that I am happy that I’m becoming.

00;08;50;11 – 00;08;50;23
Jon
Yeah.

00;08;51;12 – 00;08;58;24
Nicci
So that’s the that’s truly what I would I hear, like focus on the journey. That’s those moments.

00;08;59;12 – 00;09;17;07
Jon
What’s transforming the the goal into instead of like the pinnacle of a mountain, it’s becoming a milestone in, in life, right? Just further down in it What’s nice about that? What I love about it is if it becomes all encompassing like the next ultra, you finish the ultra, then what?

00;09;17;07 – 00;09;44;08
Nicci
Yes. Oh. Oh, my gosh. This topic just came up for me because there is a crash after. And I was talking to my coach. I work with a coach named Samantha through this program called Lira, which LinkedIn offers free services. And I said, Samantha, you know, I crash after these races. I just did a race last Saturday. And she goes, well, you know, like, what can you do better?

00;09;44;09 – 00;10;08;17
Nicci
Like, what would a running coach tell you? And I would say I said, to focus on recovery that it’s okay to rest, that it’s okay to take this time. Because in my the story in my head was, Nicci, it’s Wednesday. It’s Tuesday. Why are you not running again? Yeah. And that was just a quick aha. Um, the now what is, is going to come.

00;10;08;17 – 00;10;11;19
Nicci
So how am I going to think about it differently? Hmm.

00;10;12;00 – 00;10;12;23
Jon
That’s really cool.

00;10;13;20 – 00;10;23;03
Nicci
Because it is all part of the journey, right? Like you’re saying, it’s a milestone. And so all of those things are important steps and opportunities to become something better.

00;10;23;19 – 00;10;41;12
Jon
So you’ve done quite a few now. So, like, I’m trying to think there must be a pattern that you’re starting to see with the crash, too. Like, what does recovery look like? So that that almost can even become like an anticipated, you know, something that you anticipate with excitement. Yeah, potentially. Or that would be a hope. Right. Okay.

00;10;41;12 – 00;10;46;19
Jon
I succeeded. Now can focus with the same excitement on recovery that I did on preparing.

00;10;46;26 – 00;11;12;19
Nicci
100%. Yes. Like one big aha was I’m basically not, you know, say I burn like 5000 calories in a day. I’m going to be making up for that for probably 48 hours. So I need to get calories in. Otherwise I’ll just feel terrible and recovery will take longer and my muscles, everything is, you know, going to take longer to heal So Samantha, I was like, well, why don’t you have something in the fridge prepared?

00;11;12;19 – 00;11;27;17
Nicci
And immediately I was like, pasta with sausage and spinach and garlic and onion, all these concurred, nutritious things that I can just heat up and eat and get a large amount of calories in. But I’m not doing that. I wasn’t preparing an after meal the way I was preparing for the event.

00;11;28;04 – 00;11;35;12
Jon
So all of the preparation went into the event. Yes. And then you’re left. It’s kind of funny because like, you lay your running shoes out and clothing the night before.

00;11;35;25 – 00;11;36;16
Nicci
100%.

00;11;36;16 – 00;11;52;21
Jon
So like, no wonder there’s a crack even if, you know, it’s like, well, there will be another race if I don’t have the same level prep. That’s really funny because I’m I’m going through something similar right now. Where I’m trying to figure out what’s next. And that’s part of the honing in also like for my personal challenges and contracts to do with myself.

00;11;53;07 – 00;12;08;29
Jon
And it’s so funny because you’re right, all the preparation goes into hitting the metrics and getting it done, enjoying that. And then you’re recovering haphazardly and like going through kind of putting around growing more and more dissatisfied with the. Yes, satisfying.

00;12;09;01 – 00;12;32;06
Nicci
But yes, yes, that’s cool. And being willing to like have that conversation with myself around okay. Like my emotions and my hormones and everything that might be off for the next four or five days, but just being willing to kind of sit in that discomfort gosh, like, isn’t that what I’m already learning in the event and yeah, race.

00;12;33;25 – 00;12;58;22
Nicci
And then being willing to look at it with curiosity and, and think through it and again, become better. I think a lot, a lot about this. Like, again, it all goes back to values like I’m able to like live my values and prep for the race and during the race. But then I’m in such miss alignment when I’m not really honoring that after.

00;12;58;28 – 00;13;19;21
Nicci
And this is a huge conversation. I’m having a lot with anyone who’s transitioning. So I’ll go on base at Fort Carson. I’m working with Mount Carmel Services and Identity. It’s a conversation around identity, values you served. I would love to hear your story like I would have no way to understand what that was like for you, and I never will.

00;13;20;00 – 00;13;34;25
Nicci
But transitioning from one thing to another, there’s there’s going to be a process and it’s going to be hard. But having an alignment in your values might be that way. To have a true north and to take a step in another step.

00;13;35;07 – 00;14;11;05
Jon
I think you’re hitting the nail on the head because I’ve put a lot of thought into this. And one of the things I realized is we don’t give our selves the same clarity and permission on some of these life changes that we do, like the the adventure from the start to the transition. Right. So it’s like the I think every transition process, whether it be from the military and between industries and job recovering from a race and being like woman ultramarathon alignment, ultra marathoning right now, during this period of recovery, you know, all those things, it’s you’re going to walk through, in my opinion, the five stages of grief, right?

00;14;11;05 – 00;14;40;06
Jon
You’re going to go through all of that, especially if you don’t have a plan and then you’re going to be ravaged by that if you’re not aware of it. And it’s going to just create chaos. But like on the transition from the military, if you can step back and think, well, what about the identity of having served is serving your identity while it’s probably, you know, the discipline the high moral standing, the feeling of serving something greater than yourself, what those are traits that are not unique to the military.

00;14;40;19 – 00;14;57;05
Jon
So we can kind of distill that out okay. Well, what things allow you to maintain discipline in the pursuit of better and the pursuit of serving something greater than yourself? Right. And that can become part of that compass through the process of transitioning. Mm hmm. Which is super neat.

00;14;57;18 – 00;14;58;15
Nicci
Yes. Yes.

00;14;58;17 – 00;14;59;11
Jon
This is a thought.

00;14;59;23 – 00;15;28;09
Nicci
And it’s really, I think so the context of the conversations I’m having are around how to leverage LinkedIn to find a job and where the conversation always I try to start it in maybe a two hour time block. I wish I had 20 hours is with values and identity. Which ones do you want to keep? Hmm. You know, so my brothers a veteran from the Marine Corps, honor, courage, commitment to those personally still resonate with you?

00;15;28;09 – 00;15;47;23
Nicci
Yes. No. Okay. And and so figure that out. There’s a million things you can do to try to figure that out for yourself and go on that journey. And when you think about what the role is that you’re going to go take at a company as an entrepreneur, what are the values within that company that you are also aligned to?

00;15;48;00 – 00;16;17;23
Nicci
And now, again, we’re directionally moving towards the right thing that is going to light us up and make us feel happy and purposeful and that we can contribute. So so yes, these these concepts about figuring that out for yourself and then being able to live that every day is really important. And like just like we were talking about having the insight or the awareness to figure out, hey, my recovery plans not going so well right now.

00;16;18;03 – 00;16;41;26
Nicci
Every challenge or moment of uncertainty is an opportunity, but it’s really tough to remember that. And so we need each other. And that’s, you know, that’s my goal is to stand up in front of that room and be like, let me be the song in your heart. Let me be that other thing for you on this really scary journey of going from one thing to the next and trying to find a job.

00;16;42;03 – 00;16;45;05
Jon
Just bringing that intentional awareness into the now.

00;16;45;06 – 00;16;48;21
Nicci
Yes. Which I think is what you’re doing with these conversations.

00;16;48;23 – 00;16;51;24
Jon
Well, that’s a huge honor. So thank you for each compliment.

00;16;51;27 – 00;16;52;09
Nicci
Yeah.

00;16;53;18 – 00;17;04;12
Jon
Right. Yeah. Jumped into my head, talked, talking about like the planning out because and I want to understand some of the runs you’ve done. I know something that’s amusing to me is for six months we’ve been trying to sit down.

00;17;04;18 – 00;17;05;29
Nicci
Yes. Yes.

00;17;05;29 – 00;17;11;12
Jon
You had you had someone who’s going to you had to run. I think the first time uh huh. So we rescheduled.

00;17;11;13 – 00;17;11;25
Nicci
Yes.

00;17;12;05 – 00;17;19;24
Jon
And then another time I’m not going to order them because I don’t remember what order they went in. You had someone who was running who you were in the support network correct?

00;17;20;02 – 00;17;31;24
Nicci
Yes. And I emailed you like a month out. I’m like, hey, yeah, I’m going to help my friend run a 100 mile race. Like what? What better research project around grit. So let’s push it out. We were like, cool.

00;17;32;19 – 00;17;37;08
Jon
And then the entire family on my end got sick, like the day before the next trial.

00;17;37;08 – 00;17;38;20
Nicci
Also requiring grit.

00;17;38;26 – 00;17;47;23
Jon
Also required grit. And I was like, Hey, you know, I know this is probably becoming a theme for us, but can we shift at your back? Yeah, sure thing. And here we are finally sitting down.

00;17;47;23 – 00;17;49;01
Nicci
Yes. So yes.

00;17;49;07 – 00;17;52;21
Jon
It’s kind of fun to see, like, we just weren’t going to let this one go.

00;17;52;23 – 00;17;53;14
Nicci
Right? Right.

00;17;53;17 – 00;17;54;06
Jon
We’re going to get it.

00;17;54;07 – 00;18;26;18
Nicci
Yes. And that was the finish line. We couldn’t see. Yeah. Still believing the whole time. That one thing I’ll try to say and again, like sometimes I can’t give this advice to myself, but I do believe these things. Yeah. Is that we’re being guided via roadblocks it like the book The Alchemist by Paul Coelho. So any time I can quickly recognize that something is going really bad and this is something I learned, which was like one of my biggest sort of Aha.

00;18;26;18 – 00;18;54;10
Nicci
Takeaways during this 200 mile effort in 2020 was that despair and joy are the same if I’m willing to see it. And so we maybe had this like this is a tiny example, but we’re like, why is this happening? Like there’s friction, why do we have to keep rescheduling? But it was in service of this moment that there’s like the beautiful sun is out, there’s energy, like this whole room feels very calm, like, I don’t know if you feel it.

00;18;54;10 – 00;19;03;09
Nicci
So yeah, there were roadblocks, but we were guided. That was the purpose of the roadblocks was to arrive here in it.

00;19;03;11 – 00;19;09;15
Jon
Okay. I just you just walked right past that, like, pretty profound thoughts. I’m just. Okay, the despair and joy are the same.

00;19;09;15 – 00;19;10;03
Nicci
Yes.

00;19;11;14 – 00;19;19;28
Jon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do agree. There’s a piece in here right now that’s fun. Like, I think we’re in a flow state of just having this conversation, which is beautiful.

00;19;20;01 – 00;19;20;15
Nicci
Yes.

00;19;21;00 – 00;19;38;28
Jon
But I love it. I’ve not thought of it in those terms. I’ve thought of, like, chaos in order. You know, I get despair and joy, pain and pleasure, all of those things. Only happiness and sadness exist in contrast to the other you know.

00;19;38;28 – 00;19;58;24
Nicci
Yes. And an idea I’m playing around with as I continue to reflect on these moments during the race. That taught me that. And I’ll tell you a quick story but the question I continue to ask myself is, is the despair actually a gateway to the joy? Yes, I can experience joy and recognize happiness. And I have a gratitude jar, right?

00;19;58;25 – 00;20;20;23
Nicci
We all know these things. And even neuro chemically, we understand we can’t hold fear and gratitude in our mind at the same time. And so we can work on practicing that without having to enter through despair. But the but the I don’t know. The way I’ve noticed myself talking about it is similar to the readings I’m doing on psychedelics, the the loss of ego.

00;20;20;24 – 00;20;44;23
Nicci
Like when I say joy, I mean all of these things, I mean, like an interconnectedness to nature. I mean, like there’s this real flow state. Like, it’s, it’s, it was trippy in the race. So here’s what happened. It was like about mile 80 and it was getting dark. Yeah. At that moment in the race, which for me is something that I’m still working on getting better at.

00;20;44;23 – 00;20;54;29
Nicci
I don’t like it yeah. I noticed myself getting really sad and I’m like, I don’t like being in the woods alone at night. All these things. Yes. Okay. You can, you almost can feel like, oh, boy.

00;20;55;11 – 00;21;10;05
Jon
Especially if you’re in a high output role. Like if you’re just chugging, burning calories, working hard, there is something despairing about that transition from day to night. Yes. And then once it’s dark for like 30 minutes.

00;21;10;16 – 00;21;33;11
Nicci
It, it changes. It is kind of fine. Yes. But that sunset moment that it’s transition. Yeah, transition is going to be difficult. Okay. So I and at this point I’m with a group of three other guys and we, I had basically been with someone the entire race up until this point, but they were going to slow and I was calculating or Miles, I’m like, you guys, we’re not going to make it like we’re going to miss the cut off.

00;21;33;11 – 00;21;51;19
Nicci
We have to go so I just started kind of trudging along and, and going faster. All of a sudden I look back and I don’t see them. So now I’m alone till 80. My feet have never hurt worse. In my life, which is weird because I had I’ve done this distance before. I’ve completed 100 miles. So I’m like, Why is this happening?

00;21;51;19 – 00;22;10;23
Nicci
I start crying and everything is going wrong and I’m in complete despair. And I’m not even doing describing it at justice right now. It almost feels like, you know, when you’re in like a woodshop and you’ve like, put a vise on a piece of wood to hold it down, I felt like there was like a vise grip on my body.

00;22;11;02 – 00;22;40;07
Nicci
Like, I just there was no space to process what was going on. It was just all bad. So I’m, like, crying and walking and it’s getting dark and I’m like trying to put my headlamp on and I don’t know how to describe it, but I can go back there right now just like that. I start running. I literally started just running, and I started to feel better.

00;22;40;07 – 00;23;00;02
Nicci
I mean, there are endorphins that get kicked out. I didn’t start feeling better right away, but I’m like crying and running and I’m running uphill, downhill. Where is normally the plan is you walk the up hills, you run the downhills. And that was my plan and all of these alter races. But here I am like frolicking uphill and I am crying and running.

00;23;01;08 – 00;23;27;08
Nicci
So so it’s this weird moment. And so now it’s like mile 90 and I’m running and I was a zombie 20 minutes ago and in the 100 mile race that I had done years before, a year before, I was nowhere near capable physically in my body to run. So now I’ve crossed over sort of that milestone as well. But I, I’m like, How is this happening?

00;23;27;08 – 00;23;52;04
Nicci
How is my body, my feet, everything hurt. But I didn’t feel pain anymore. It all went away. And maybe it was the endorphins. It’s the chemicals. Fine, I’ll take it. But it was like I entered this, like, force field that I just felt free. And I was like, I was, like, primal. As I was moving, so was despair, the gateway to that in that moment?

00;23;52;04 – 00;24;01;22
Nicci
Yeah. But in day to day life, what I’m working on with my coach is how do I take the learnings from this race and apply them to my day to day life?

00;24;02;01 – 00;24;02;14
Jon
Yeah.

00;24;02;19 – 00;24;22;02
Nicci
Which are so less profound. But. But are they? I don’t know. Maybe not, because if I’m stressed at work and then I decide to take action after work that isn’t great, lay on the couch instead, have a glass of wine instead of going for a walk. Right. There are these little micro things that I know make a difference.

00;24;22;12 – 00;24;34;04
Nicci
And so how do I harness the despair I’m feeling in any given moment and get myself to remember that joy is on the way home? That’s the practice.

00;24;34;26 – 00;25;09;02
Jon
You drop in bombs, has nuclear warheads. But so what you’re talking it’s the the psychedelic experience, right, of breaking through that. It’s interesting because you mentioned psychedelics. I’ve been studying it a lot. Also, but they my understanding of them is they create the stripping away of everything so that you can have that complete in the moment. Experience where your ego, everything, nothing is, nothing exists except for everything, and you’re just completely immersed in all things at once.

00;25;09;11 – 00;25;22;20
Jon
And it’s this, like, wild experience, right? That transforms how you think. And there’s a lot of study that support how pain is the other gateway to do that without the psychedelic.

00;25;22;20 – 00;25;23;10
Nicci
That’s interesting.

00;25;23;10 – 00;25;57;17
Jon
Okay. Yeah. So like similar experiences through meditation, through ultra races, and through psychedelics, like the same exact experiences have been recorded even to like the types of things that are felt and seen and everything going through that. So it’s kind of this, this wild correlation to seeing them that I think is incredibly interesting. Whether and regardless of what someone’s perspective on, on it is, I don’t think it should be something that’s written off because you mentioned Primal it just locked you into this thing of it’s probably something you wish you could re-experience.

00;25;57;17 – 00;26;01;08
Nicci
Yes, yes. I’m not walking through the woods. I am the woods.

00;26;01;10 – 00;26;01;24
Jon
Yeah.

00;26;02;05 – 00;26;08;24
Nicci
It’s a wild like can I get myself now to like consider that it’s tougher, but in that moment, I get it.

00;26;09;18 – 00;26;35;22
Jon
It’s interesting because I just I would caution myself in anyone who’d want to discredit it because we live right now, such fragmented, distracted, lives, like the things we eat. We can’t even feel how bad they make us feel until you remove them. You know, like we can’t realize how clear our minds can be until we’re not drinking or doing narcotics or whatever, you know, like nicotine, all those things.

00;26;35;22 – 00;26;53;26
Jon
It’s like, hard to tell. Like, really, even our minds are. So it’s like, I don’t know. And until you start stripping things away and allowing yourself to experience those things, I think there’s something to it. Under the self-awareness, the conscientiousness alone Yes. That you’re talking about. Sounds super cool. I want to hear more about it.

00;26;53;29 – 00;27;21;17
Nicci
So the the words stripping and peeling were big words for me during this race. And in the prep to it so Chad Wright is a Navy SEAL. It was on Rituals podcast. And his conversation like the first quote in the beginning of the podcast, like right when you turn the show on, Chad says, find a place inside of you that you can go in moments of adversity.

00;27;21;27 – 00;27;41;29
Nicci
And I’m like, that really resonates with me. Like when you hear something that really resonates with you, you like grab it, right? Because we are flooded with information all day. But then there’s moments when I hear something and I’m like, Ooh, that resonates with me. So I’m like, Okay, I know that what’s going to take me out of this race is my mind.

00;27;42;24 – 00;28;04;12
Nicci
And so my mind and like this place inside of me, I literally picture like a like a blue or like behind my rib cage is like this inner. And Marcus really is talks about this, but like the inner citadel that I’m I’m going to that place and it’s in order to get there. And so this is what I literally thought about during the race.

00;28;04;12 – 00;28;27;20
Nicci
I have to peel layers of myself like an onion. So this was the self-talk. Like if I was going down the trail and I started to feel really bad, maybe I’m sleep-deprived, I haven’t eaten enough, I feel nauseous, my whole body hurts because it’s been moving for four days I would literally in those moment say, okay, Nicci, like peel, peel, keep going.

00;28;27;21 – 00;29;08;29
Nicci
Get to the true inner self, keep going, keep going. And I do believe that that, like, inner city, it all got bigger. And now it’s a place that, like, lives inside of me. And I have it and I can go to Yeah. If I remember to in moments of despair. And but it took that peeling and it took this big effort of adversity to like, witness myself in practice that and I don’t know, it’s all those things combined, but the peeling and the stripping could only happen out there in the wilderness for a couple days when I wasn’t getting all of this other stuff in life at me.

00;29;09;00 – 00;29;11;28
Nicci
Yeah, I got to the real me. I got to face myself.

00;29;12;22 – 00;29;21;01
Jon
That’s beautiful. I just this last week had this really weird experience. I’ll share it since you’re sharing yours.

00;29;21;02 – 00;29;21;09
Nicci
Okay.

00;29;21;11 – 00;29;23;05
Jon
We’re off. We’re having. I’m having fun.

00;29;23;06 – 00;29;26;16
Nicci
Great fun. Let’s go with it. Yes, let’s just. Great time. Super fun.

00;29;26;16 – 00;29;33;20
Jon
So for some reason, I’m recovering from some training I did. Where I almost ruptured both my Achilles. So.

00;29;34;03 – 00;29;35;07
Nicci
Yeah, I wasn’t the big one.

00;29;35;07 – 00;29;42;26
Jon
Yeah, I wasn’t good. So I’m reforming my body to do what I want to do, which is ultimately move heavy weight over long distances.

00;29;42;27 – 00;29;43;09
Nicci
Cool.

00;29;43;09 – 00;30;03;13
Jon
Yeah. So we’ll see what that turns into. But I was like, I want to lift sometimes as I’m training and doing things on my soul bike and all that stuff just in red light because I train really early in the morning. Super cool. That’s like, I don’t want these bright lights. I just want something primal. But I can still see you not, you know, trip and hurt myself.

00;30;03;24 – 00;30;24;02
Jon
So I ended up getting a blowjob. I plugged it in and I decided to do I can’t remember how long it was but like I said, I think I was like a half hour. Not nothing that crazy on the assault bike, just as hard as I could, just the red light and just see what happens. And I ended up going into this like mental state where my eyes were shut.

00;30;24;16 – 00;30;47;17
Jon
I could kind of sense like this red glow, but I felt like I was flying forward and things kept wanting to, like, drag me back into what I was experiencing in the pain because, like, I was pushing like over 75 RPMs, like going to vomit just terrible bus going. So I felt all these things and distractions, like wanting to slow me back down to where I was by just kept trying to like fly further through and like shake them off.

00;30;48;00 – 00;31;13;22
Jon
And it hit this point where I don’t know for how long, but for a period I no longer was flying, I just floating and moving and then it came crashing back down but it was super cool. I was like, Yeah, yeah, that I’m craving more of that. I want to. The other place that happens is in a live roar in Jiu-Jitsu, you read this going maxed out, like being choked to death, which happens a lot to me because I don’t know what I’m doing.

00;31;14;09 – 00;31;15;22
Jon
Um, it’s like.

00;31;15;28 – 00;31;19;16
Nicci
This is a very interesting sport that I would like to know more about. Yeah. Please continue.

00;31;19;16 – 00;31;42;13
Jon
Yeah, absolutely. You should come. But, um, it’s like in those moments, nothing else exists, and it’s like, such a fast way to get there. Because you’re going in, in, like, these six to ten minute rounds, you cannot afford to be anywhere but fully immersed in the moment. Yes, it’s focusing on every breath, every movement, every feel of your, you know, your partner’s body.

00;31;42;13 – 00;32;03;17
Jon
Just everything is completely stripped away to that few seconds. And so addictive. Like I realized, listening to you, talking about the orb and stripping down to being in the force and being part of and just moving in, the pain starts to lift away. That’s what I like about that sport so much. You get it time and time and time again and it’s just gorgeous.

00;32;03;19 – 00;32;27;26
Nicci
Yes. You can access it quickly. Yeah. Whereas what I’m noticing in the sport of ultrarunning, it takes there’s there’s a much bigger effort required at this point to get to that spot to find an edge. But there are other I mean, yoga, I could do yoga and find an edge where it is wildly difficult to hold something or jujitsu.

00;32;27;26 – 00;32;35;00
Nicci
It sounds like you can get to that edge really quick where you kind of meet your maker. You have you start making some decisions, um.

00;32;35;11 – 00;32;50;10
Jon
Especially not knowing what I’m doing. And going against guys who do and telling them, please kill me. Yes, yes. I’m concerned that as I get better, it’ll be harder to find that edge because I won’t be pushed as hard. But for now, it’s beautiful.

00;32;50;15 – 00;33;04;18
Nicci
Yes. It’s so good. Yes. And then you get good at sort of dancing in that space, like not too far beyond your skis of what you’re capable of, but not anywhere near your comfort zone. Correct. And now you’re frolicking in this uncertainty.

00;33;04;28 – 00;33;17;23
Jon
Well, in where I’m thinking about here is like whether it’s inward or or flying forward, I want to refocus this next time I’m in that position, like where I is on the bike and I was trying to push forward. I’m want to try and refocus the flight inward and see what happens.

00;33;18;10 – 00;33;18;21
Nicci
Yes.

00;33;18;21 – 00;33;19;24
Jon
Just to try and create that.

00;33;20;08 – 00;33;20;24
Nicci
Yes.

00;33;20;24 – 00;33;21;10
Jon
That thing.

00;33;21;10 – 00;33;29;13
Nicci
So my sister Hayley and I went on a journey to watch all the Rocky movies. We actually still have one to go which is Creed two. So there’s like.

00;33;29;14 – 00;33;30;07
Jon
It was Creed one good.

00;33;30;11 – 00;33;33;23
Nicci
Creed one was great. It had like 98% Rotten Tomatoes. It was great.

00;33;34;00 – 00;33;35;06
Jon
Okay. So it’s worth a watch.

00;33;35;08 – 00;34;03;12
Nicci
Absolutely. All right. Um, but I bring this up because what were we just. Oh, because for some reason, I can’t stop watching fighting movies. And last night I was watching Warrior I watch the two brothers. Right. And it struck me that the coach, Frank, is coaching Brendan. Yeah, right. He uses Beethoven as music. And every time Brendan is getting beat with fists, the coach is saying, Breathe, you’re fine.

00;34;03;12 – 00;34;16;23
Nicci
Just breathe, you’re fine. And that, to me, is going inward. You take a breath and you come in here because nothing around here controls what’s going on. You you are choosing.

00;34;17;02 – 00;34;23;11
Jon
Yeah, it’s. It’s like not allowing the emotions to overwhelm. Don’t let the lizard brain take over. Hmm.

00;34;23;14 – 00;34;23;26
Nicci
Right.

00;34;23;26 – 00;34;43;18
Jon
Yes, right. So. So, but of my coaches say the same thing that, like, when you’re getting just crushed and you can’t breathe and your face is getting smushed, just, you know, post enough to just create enough space that you have your little safe space that you can breathe and then just make yourself at home. Hmm. And and, you know, just make yourself at home.

00;34;43;18 – 00;34;55;28
Jon
And once you start being at home, start trying how to get out. Don’t don’t, like, make yourself comfortable where you want to stay there, but get to the point where there’s no panic, right? You’re fine. Nothing can happen to you. You’re there since that same thought.

00;34;56;02 – 00;34;56;18
Nicci
Yes.

00;34;56;18 – 00;34;58;11
Jon
And being able to practice that is beautiful.

00;34;58;15 – 00;35;14;11
Nicci
Yeah. So cool. It’s so cool. And I think it gets stronger. Like, we get better. We do. And that’s the goal. Is to like when I’m on my deathbed and I look back on my life, I want to be able to say that, like, I participated in the practice of this at school.

00;35;14;24 – 00;35;27;01
Jon
Participate in the practice. I like that a lot I’m going to just write it down yeah. You’ve already dropped, like, ten bombs. That’s fine.

00;35;27;20 – 00;35;34;14
Nicci
Good. I think most of them are mine. Maybe half came from my own thoughts and words and set of borrowed. But borrowed are good too.

00;35;34;28 – 00;35;55;28
Jon
Well, there’s this idea on that. I love it. Beware of wisdom you do not earn. Hmm. What’s fun is everything that you’ve shared you’ve experienced. So it’s like you’ve taken it, experienced it, and then brought it back to the conversation. And that’s kind of what’s cool about everything we just talked about, right? Like these places you can go mentally.

00;35;55;28 – 00;36;17;02
Jon
Oh, thank God it came back. Yeah. Sitting here and something that left me. What’s interesting is, especially if you’ve not experienced transcending the resistance and the fear of the pain, it feels like that is the border. Yes, right. So, like, you start to work out or you start to go to a yoga pose or what have you, you’re doing that run and you hit that and you’re like, this is the end of me.

00;36;17;26 – 00;36;30;20
Jon
But the the reality and this is this ties into you have to believe in the finish line. You can’t see. Right. The reality is if you just stay the course, you’ll learn that that barrier was a lie.

00;36;30;27 – 00;36;31;17
Nicci
Yes.

00;36;31;17 – 00;36;43;12
Jon
And then you do that a few times. It becomes like addictive to say, I want to live in the tension of the barrier so that I can learn to make push through it and pierce it more and more.

00;36;43;14 – 00;37;09;07
Nicci
Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. Like people. A lot of questions. I’ll get here. Nicci, how did you feel after the race? Like how did you recover and it’s like not the right question because I was fine at mile one 92. So the last is actually 208 miles. So it was like the last like eight, ten miles of the race.

00;37;10;04 – 00;37;32;01
Nicci
I was running again, literally. Now, the last like for miles were all downhill, but it was sunny. The sun had come up. It was like 11 a.m. I was, I was feeling good, but I was running, my hips were fine. My whole body felt fine and I crossed the finish line. And it actually wasn’t until like two days later I was back in Casper, Wyoming, and this race took in Colorado so I was like 6 hours away.

00;37;32;01 – 00;37;52;28
Nicci
And I was in there was in the shower, the deep thoughts in the shower. And I go, oh, I see why people want to go further. Hmm. But what I’m not telling you is the despair I was in at Mile like one 92, which was in the middle of the night. It was raining my nose was bleeding. I was with my pacer.

00;37;52;28 – 00;38;16;08
Nicci
All I wanted to do was sleep in the dirt on the trail. He had to, like, pull me along. So it was like it was a real, real struggle, a real crucible. And again, that preceded the daylight and the horror of, oh, my gosh, I’m running again. So it feels like the end. And now I’ve witnessed myself not be at the end.

00;38;16;08 – 00;38;26;19
Nicci
And I wonder if I can go further. And people do go further, right? There’s people trying to run the Colorado Trail 500 miles and break records. And and now it’s like, ooh, what’s possible? Yeah.

00;38;27;03 – 00;38;31;16
Jon
Well, I think as a species, we’re continuing to redefine precisely what is possible.

00;38;31;22 – 00;38;32;04
Nicci
Yes.

00;38;32;09 – 00;38;37;08
Jon
And and help educate me a little bit. So you did a 208 mile race straight through.

00;38;37;19 – 00;38;48;21
Nicci
Yes. Holy moly. So it took 104 hours. I slept about 8 hours total, so I would take breaks yeah. But it was one, it was one large effort.

00;38;48;28 – 00;38;52;10
Jon
Over for four plus days. 8 hours of sleep.

00;38;52;17 – 00;38;52;25
Nicci
Yeah.

00;38;52;26 – 00;38;58;09
Jon
For perspective for those listening, 208 miles was I here in Colorado.

00;38;58;10 – 00;39;01;09
Nicci
Is must cliff. Yep. It was the highest order miler in the U.S..

00;39;01;09 – 00;39;02;10
Jon
What’s it called? What’s that.

00;39;02;10 – 00;39;24;12
Nicci
Race? The songwriter Christo. 200. Who with the human potential running series. So John Lacroix is race series. He’s got about eight or nine races in Colorado, one in Arkansas, one in Texas. It’s the largest race series in. But you hear that. But the races are super grassroot, anchored in values like community. Yeah. So like it’s a really special environment now.

00;39;25;20 – 00;39;41;20
Nicci
I naturally look at that race and I’m like, it’s easy to be like, oh my gosh, I could cut my time. I could do this better, I could do that better. But lest I forget that, like, the purpose isn’t the running, it’s to become a better person.

00;39;41;29 – 00;39;42;15
Jon
Yeah.

00;39;42;15 – 00;39;51;26
Nicci
So I’m not like trying to go do things to, like, get better times, but it’s easy from even my own brain to, like, fall back into that trap.

00;39;52;06 – 00;40;06;25
Jon
It’s the same exact what you just described was better put in what I was trying to say about the show. Right. But the good theory that my goal is that the pursuit of getting better not sitting down, getting Exxon out of conversations, all that jazz.

00;40;06;28 – 00;40;07;25
Nicci
Yes, yes.

00;40;08;15 – 00;40;33;27
Jon
To man, that’s brilliant. Are you familiar with the the black toes hmm. Race. I’m pretty sure. Black foot race. This is embarrassing. It’s in Tennessee in the Appalachian Mountains. It’s a 48 hour race. And one of the guys I work with actually just wanted to get 150 miles in the 48 hours you took first place. It was, I think the first year they did 48 hours.

00;40;34;14 – 00;40;51;23
Jon
And he’s like, we’re going to sit down on the third. And I’m really excited to do that as like, man, there’s uncertainty. What the heck I get to sit down with you. Who’s done? It’s 208 the longest so far. So you’ve done 208. You just did 115 and like took first in the nation. That was a kind of fun deal.

00;40;51;23 – 00;41;09;15
Jon
For him. And I’ll send you a he he shared his story for the first time. Was this really just genuine, authentic, powerful experience? About 12 minutes long I’ll send it to you when you’re done. And the reason I bring him up is like I want to connect to you guys because he’s just I think getting started.

00;41;09;18 – 00;41;10;05
Nicci
Cool.

00;41;10;06 – 00;41;16;01
Jon
And it’s like, good gracious, let’s let’s plug you guys together and please, he’s just so authentic. We’re all humble and kind.

00;41;16;02 – 00;41;16;15
Nicci
Yes.

00;41;16;23 – 00;41;18;15
Jon
Yes. The type of person you want to know.

00;41;18;20 – 00;41;19;06
Nicci
Thank you.

00;41;19;07 – 00;41;25;10
Jon
So his name’s Darren Terry. I say that comfortable because I know he’s going to be on the great show. He’s going to sit down.

00;41;25;10 – 00;41;26;05
Nicci
So what’s up, Darren?

00;41;26;15 – 00;41;27;07
Jon
Yeah, what’s up?

00;41;29;09 – 00;41;39;08
Jon
But it’s the same set type of power. And and I want I want to understand some of what you’ve done, if you don’t mind. Like you did the 208 miler, which was called something.

00;41;39;15 – 00;41;40;27
Nicci
The songwriter Christo.

00;41;41;07 – 00;41;47;20
Jon
Okay. Do you mind just sharing kind of like a little bit about that journey, some of the races you’ve done, just for curiosity sake.

00;41;47;28 – 00;41;50;04
Nicci
Yeah. So when I was three years old.

00;41;50;17 – 00;41;51;06
Jon
Okay, so.

00;41;51;29 – 00;42;13;17
Nicci
My mom put me in soccer, okay? Like a lot of young children, and I don’t know what age we are, and we start creating our first memories, but this is absolutely one of my first memories. I came back from practice, and I can still harness this feeling inside of me now. I remember feeling so terrible, wildly inadequate, and I remember why.

00;42;13;17 – 00;42;30;24
Nicci
And it’s what I told her. I came home and I said, Mom, I quit. I’m not doing soccer. She sat me at the top of the stairs. I remember sitting side by side with her at the top of the stairs, and she said, Well, why do you want to quit? And I said, I can’t do it. Every time I try to kick the ball, my foot hits the ground and hits the grass, and I don’t kick the ball.

00;42;30;24 – 00;42;56;28
Nicci
I can’t do it. And, you know, there might have been more to this. And she’s she is both her and my dad hold a very high standard in how they live their lives. And that was never like verbally or any like they didn’t push us as three kids. Like we pushed ourselves because we witnessed their behavior. They are just I learned kindness from my mom and I learned from my dad.

00;42;57;18 – 00;43;20;01
Nicci
So my mom goes, well, Nicci, you can’t just quit. So I went back to the soccer the next day and it became the biggest part of my life. I played all through my life. I played in club in high school, I played in college. It was the love of my life. I felt slow, I felt free. I felt like my body became this thing.

00;43;20;01 – 00;43;41;11
Nicci
That wasn’t what culture was telling us as women that the body is. It was just this beautiful vehicle to do all of the things and make these friendships and learn teamwork and be in service of my team. And so my closest friends today, we call ourselves the Wolves which I know Abby Wambach coined, but we believe we did.

00;43;41;27 – 00;44;02;23
Nicci
So there’s there’s seven of us, and there’s a few wolf pups in the crew now as well. But that cohesion and that group is the biggest gift I ever got from the sport of soccer. But I also got this love of sport and this love of me my body. So when I graduated college at age 23, I was on the couch and I was depressed.

00;44;02;23 – 00;44;28;05
Nicci
So I’ve managed depression since I was about 16. So I relate to it differently now. But at that time, at age 23, it was very, very scary. And my mom, again, I say this lovingly, she grabbed my arm and it was like, you’re running the Chicago Marathon, you’re taking your uncle’s bib. So in 2007 with like very little training, I had graduated college and played soccer for 20 years, first summer, never having something to train for.

00;44;28;15 – 00;44;54;29
Nicci
Now I did and we ran that marathon together and for ten years I ran marathons with her and my grandma that became the gateway drug to ultrarunning because I was like, I’m not getting any faster. I wonder if I can go further. Hmm. So I signed up for a 50 mile race and not over there. Then my mother and my sister came with me to Colorado and Sedalia, and we ran 50 miles.

00;44;55;09 – 00;45;10;23
Nicci
We did it as a team. My mom was like Chief Food Officer. My sister ran the last 22 miles with me. She lives with me now here in Colorado, and that was it. I was like, Oh, there’s something here I’m going to keep doing this. But I feel like Ted Lasso because I know nothing about. I’m like, not a runner.

00;45;10;23 – 00;45;29;21
Nicci
I’m a soccer player. Yeah. So I’m like coming at this ultrarunning problem from a completely different angle. And they say ultrarunning is a like a food eating contest. Well, we grew up Italian. What do Italians want to do? I know how I know how to eat. You want me to eat and, like, move my body and sign me up?

00;45;30;17 – 00;45;54;29
Nicci
So that’s sort of how I got into the sport. But so 20, 17. I ran a 50 miler for 2018. I failed at the 100 mile distance twice, but I became a very good 60 mile runner. Then in 2019 I completed the Silver Hills. 100 in fair play, Colorado and that was my first hundred mile finish. And then the year after I ran 200 and that’s really been about it.

00;45;55;00 – 00;45;58;09
Nicci
I’ve done a few other races, but those were kind of the big ones.

00;45;58;17 – 00;46;06;27
Jon
Wait, so 50 50 got good at 60 is trying for the hundred now 100 and then just for like 208.

00;46;06;29 – 00;46;30;04
Nicci
Yes, yes. Because there are no rules on all of it. So the first 100 miler I attempted was like a wild disaster. Yeah. Thank goodness for my friend Katherine having friends that are willing to raise their hand and say, hey, I’ll come pays you for 50 miles. So Katherine pays me from 100 to one 50 during the 200.

00;46;30;07 – 00;46;45;26
Nicci
Yeah, she was also the one that for my first hundred mile race two years earlier, flew to Quebec with me. This was in 20, 18. She, her and I were the only ones there this was 100 mile race. So Quebec, I don’t know what I was thinking. No one at the race spoke English, the whole thing. Everyone was speaking French.

00;46;45;26 – 00;47;14;12
Nicci
I think I was supposed to like weigh in. It was like, ready, start, go I don’t know what’s going on. So, like, that was already a very interesting game. That is all part of the race. And looking back on it now, I love that type of problem-solving, but that race I didn’t know anyone. It was very remote. It was on like this mountainside where they also kind of have a ski resort but is also super remote.

00;47;14;23 – 00;47;38;19
Nicci
And it’s mile 50. It’s the middle of the night, it’s midnight and I’m headed out on this second lap. So I leave this warm comfy tent and I head out with all my gear. Kathryn had just fed me, baby wiped me all these things, my feet, my arms. She took care of me. Now I am heading back out fog sets in and I’m going across the ski run.

00;47;39;09 – 00;47;56;00
Nicci
So I’m in the woods and I hit the ski run. And as you know, it’s like this whole open wide, like, imagine a ski run with snow on it and I can’t see the next pink flag. So I’m like, oh, gosh, what am I going to do? So thank goodness my favorite book is Shadow Divers and Shadow Divers.

00;47;56;09 – 00;48;16;11
Nicci
If you’re diving and you, you lose something, you do something called sweeps. So you have a point of reference. You go out five feet and then you do a half circle. And if you don’t find anything, you come back to your point. You go out ten feet and you do a half circle and it’s probably hard to hear this, but you can see as I’m moving my hand.

00;48;16;11 – 00;48;36;23
Nicci
So that’s what I did. I had my one pink flag and I went out a little further and I couldn’t I was doing this for an hour. Thank goodness. Another runner came in. The reason I couldn’t see anything was because the fog had set in and I didn’t know. And this is what I learned is that the red light on your headlamp cuts through fog I had a red light, but I wasn’t using it and my one headlamp wasn’t good enough.

00;48;36;24 – 00;49;01;24
Nicci
Now I have always to headlamps well about all these things, but I was lost and I was seeing animals in the trees. I was hearing bear noises, moose noises. I was in full primal panic mode. Yeah. I felt the adrenaline in my body. Like I’ve never been alone in the woods seeing animals like this. I felt like I was out of my head, way up in the sky.

00;49;02;11 – 00;49;19;14
Nicci
And so thank goodness this other runner came and we went one by one, and he had two headlamps. So now we had three together and we found the next pink flag in the next one. But I was so panicked that by the time we got to the next aid station, I pull myself out of the race. I the next morning, I call my mom.

00;49;19;22 – 00;49;39;07
Nicci
I was crying and I’m laying in the hotel bed and I felt fine. My body felt fine. I’m like, How did I do 60 miles in the mountains? And I feel fine right now. And I was so mad at myself. But what I realized is that the mind took me out of that the whole time from when that guy got me to we made it to the next aid station.

00;49;39;23 – 00;49;53;01
Nicci
Here’s what was going on in the narrative in my head, I’m done. I’m not going to make it. There’s no way. Oh, my gosh, I can’t believe this. It was all negative and it took me out. I had created my destiny before I even got to the aid station. These poor aid station workers are like, Oh my gosh, you seem fine.

00;49;53;02 – 00;50;08;28
Nicci
You want some soup, you can go back out. So I learned that there, but I don’t think it really sunk in until later that I knew of the mind could take me out of the race. It could keep me in once again.

00;50;08;28 – 00;50;26;16
Jon
There’s so many directions I want to just pull on with that. It’s frickin amazing. Let’s see how good my memory is with how much just I just want to explore, like, ten things you just said. I want to go down, so let’s see what we can do. Okay. One and maybe this one’s not as big as you talked about the depression of leaving college.

00;50;26;16 – 00;50;31;11
Jon
In, like, 20 years of soccer is down. That’s when this transitions we were talking about, right?

00;50;31;12 – 00;50;31;26
Nicci
Yes.

00;50;32;00 – 00;50;38;12
Jon
And then the marathons became that purpose driving goal to pursue, to live your life around.

00;50;38;12 – 00;50;44;08
Nicci
Yes. And the person that got me it required a human to get me there, which it was my mom.

00;50;44;11 – 00;50;47;25
Jon
And hopefully we can be we can help fill that void for people.

00;50;48;00 – 00;50;50;25
Nicci
For each other. Yeah, we are each other’s person.

00;50;51;00 – 00;51;15;00
Jon
Yeah. Right. Right now the things that are unlocking in my mind right because I’m sitting here wanting to figure out the continued direction, the pursuit, right. And it’s just like I can feel weight’s falling off. So it’s just beautiful. So that’s kind of fun. So you get into that, which is super neat. That being the marathon, again, you do that for the ten years and your goal, it’s up the ante and you essentially double your distance in the pursuit, which is fun.

00;51;15;17 – 00;51;40;18
Jon
One of the things that was super interesting in my mind was you had the headlamp, you had the red light, but you didn’t know that’s what you needed. So it’s like how often do we have the tools in not even know. It’s a fun little example that you can then extrapolate out to what you’re talking about. Well, in that race, you learned the mind can take you out, and then it took a little bit longer for you to realize, Holy cried wolf, I can take me out, you can put me in.

00;51;41;07 – 00;52;02;13
Jon
And that ties is pretty little bow around this idea we’re talking around of like if we can learn to utilize our mind and strip away the distractions, who cannot truly learn to live in the tension between what were the two words you use? Joy and despair. If we can learn to live there, then we become limitless, indomitable. We become way.

00;52;02;13 – 00;52;03;17
Nicci
Makers. Yes, right.

00;52;03;23 – 00;52;12;07
Jon
Which is one of it’s what I would call the person who learns to take what’s in the way to become the way. It’s that it’s, you know, an old stoic thought.

00;52;12;07 – 00;52;12;25
Nicci
But yes.

00;52;13;03 – 00;52;27;28
Jon
Well, way makers is kind of the. So what of the grit theory in my mind as this evolves, it’s like, well, why would you want to practice grit? Why would you want to be intentional? So you can be become a way maker. Why do you want to do that? Because you want to live fully and you want to become limitless.

00;52;28;07 – 00;52;37;08
Jon
And you want to experience the joy and vibrance of life and share that experience. With others. That’s why you become a way maker. It’s the it’s the exact opposite of a victim.

00;52;38;01 – 00;52;38;13
Nicci
Yes.

00;52;38;22 – 00;52;42;04
Jon
And and it is aimed at freedom.

00;52;42;16 – 00;52;42;28
Nicci
Yes.

00;52;43;07 – 00;52;59;29
Jon
Right. But personal freedom to live fully I don’t know. It’s fun. And this is all your journey in my mind. You know, I’m kind of pinning it to the ideas I’m familiar with, but it’s that journey yes.

00;52;59;29 – 00;53;20;14
Nicci
And something I very quickly realized after the very first 50 Mile races, I thought it was an external journey of more miles run, more miles cataloged. And very quickly I realized it was an internal journey. I’m not going this way. I’m coming inward and finding out who I am and I think this all goes back to what we’re saying.

00;53;20;14 – 00;53;44;07
Nicci
Like you, as you pursue this thing and try to hold a high standard for yourself, you are naturally almost shining a light outward from you that you’re not assuming is going to help others, but you are offering it to the world and saying, Hey, the world’s really tough. We have a lot of problems to solve. And while we are here on this earth, why not be in service of something like light?

00;53;45;11 – 00;54;02;12
Jon
I love the word offer because that it’s a humble offering with no presumption that anyone will want it. But it’s just like, here, I give it freely. Please, if if it’s attractive, consume it and maybe we’ll see each other on the path and encourage each other from it, you know? That’s it.

00;54;02;19 – 00;54;06;15
Nicci
One, it’s this idea of a pacer and an ultra race.

00;54;06;15 – 00;54;06;25
Jon
Yeah.

00;54;08;00 – 00;54;26;18
Nicci
Which is like a perfect symbol for everything else we’re talking about. You really? This. I keep saying this because this is the message I need to remind myself of. I have not learned this is that to move from one place to another? Point A to point B, it’s our people.

00;54;28;27 – 00;54;55;08
Nicci
And so a pacer is someone who joins you at a particularly difficult point in an alter race, likely 50 mile of 100 or 100 of 200. They are fresh eyes, fresh legs. So they’re are to keep you on the trail. They’re there to keep you motivated and happy. Katherine When we were going from 100 to one 50, she had emailed a bunch of my friends and they all sent videos of themselves and she was showing me the videos and that was a huge left.

00;54;56;04 – 00;55;18;17
Nicci
Bob, who is another friend, he went from one 50 to two with me. He asked me about my favorite book and for 2 hours he let me talk to him about Shadow Divers. Now, that was really smart because I didn’t even see what he was doing, but I know that he asked me that question to distract me but they are were they were there, the shepherds to go from point A to point B, and I, I keep saying this out loud because it is for me.

00;55;18;17 – 00;55;29;17
Nicci
I try to do things on my own. And if I can remember this idea that we are better together, then there’s so much more that light we can give.

00;55;33;02 – 00;55;43;10
Jon
The you made a glib comment earlier that ties into this. You’re like, Yeah. And then my friend showed up into the last 50 miles with me.

00;55;43;10 – 00;55;43;20
Nicci
Yeah.

00;55;43;24 – 00;55;45;00
Jon
I was like, That’s one heck of a friend.

00;55;45;11 – 00;55;46;03
Nicci
It’s a great friend.

00;55;46;04 – 00;56;25;11
Jon
But the thing that comes into mind is you probably have a good collection of friends that will do that. Right? You just mentioned multiple. You mentioned these things and I think what it points to is we have to, by necessity, be intentional in the community we immerse ourselves in. Right. It’s not a new idea at all. And there’s something I think, really in this pursuit, it feels so novel and new, you feel like you’re discovering it and then there’s this transitionary period on this journey inward, you know, and learning all these things and like being plugged into existence.

00;56;25;11 – 00;56;44;02
Jon
It feels like that you realize, holy crud, this is older than time itself. There’s nothing new to it. And I think for like this split seconds, like, oh, I thought I found something cool and new and it almost like tries to rob from it. But that’s a lie in my mind. It’s like, well, you did discover something new.

00;56;44;02 – 00;57;13;05
Jon
It was it was locked away from you. You couldn’t find it. So you did find something new and novel. And you should be euphoric about that. Mm hmm. But then you should be grateful that it’s not new, because if it’s if it’s universally accessible, that means that you don’t have to be alone in it. Which brings us back to this point of like, well, if you don’t have to be alone in it, then you can find others and you can create an entire life with people who are experiencing life fully.

00;57;13;27 – 00;57;28;11
Jon
And now all of those become catalysts to further shoot each person further in. It becomes this, like, amazing, multifaceted journey forward that becomes limitless. It’s beautiful.

00;57;28;15 – 00;58;04;01
Nicci
Yes, it’s beautiful. And I think it’s important to call out to is at that community, everyone something I learned from my you know, playing lots of other sports as well. Growing up for my basketball coach is like player role. So if your role is six person off the bench, if your role is, you know bringing water to the team, if you’re role is washing the you know the jerseys like whatever your role is is your role sharing the code at the beginning of practice you are doing that role to the best of your ability and you are in service of that role because you’re in service of the group.

00;58;04;12 – 00;58;28;03
Nicci
And so there are pacers and runners that are absolutely doing these big feats. And there were four other people that came to this. 200 mile race, two friends that I partnered with at LinkedIn. Michelle and Ryan, Michelle Nicholls and Ryan Madigan literally flew in the middle of a pandemic to Colorado to help support me. Ryan owned all the logistics.

00;58;28;03 – 00;58;49;26
Nicci
Him and his wife Jessie, they fixed the camper van I was in. He Ryan gave me a better headlight Michelle, literally the first thing. So she was like chief humor officer. She made sure that we are all at, like, keeping it real. Yeah. And keeping it loose. And without without this community all doing these roles, we are lost.

00;58;50;00 – 00;59;11;12
Nicci
Yeah. And and there’s so much purpose in that. So it’s like, not one thing it’s finding that within yourself. Where can I play a role is something I’m constantly asking myself is like, what? What am I offering here? And is my offering better as I continue to push myself more fully?

00;59;12;05 – 00;59;21;00
Jon
Well, let’s play with that for a minute. So I know we mentioned one of the times we rescheduled. It wasn’t for you to run. It was for you to assist someone running their first hundred miler, right?

00;59;21;01 – 00;59;21;10
Nicci
Yes.

00;59;21;17 – 00;59;26;09
Jon
What was that experience like? Because it’s completely different teaching than doing. Mm hmm.

00;59;26;16 – 00;59;48;05
Nicci
Yes. So it was beautiful and amazing. And it’s it it is so because we are so connected, because I know what it feels like. I know what she’s thinking, what she’s feeling, what’s happening every moment of the way. And she doesn’t have to say it. We almost don’t even need to talk and it’s still problem-solving. It’s like being in the race.

00;59;48;05 – 01;00;08;20
Nicci
So she came in and a lot. This happened to a lot of people during the race. It was really hot. So this was in Douglas Google Park, north of Phenix, and it was a 100, 110 degrees. People were oversold did. So they were taking a ton of electrolytes in a ton of salt tabs in which helps retain your liquid.

01;00;08;28 – 01;00;24;02
Nicci
Got to have that. You have to take electrolytes. But they were over salted, which means they weren’t paying anything out. And then that means you have stress on your kidneys and you have stress and all these other functions in your body. You get swollen. You can’t move. That’s a that’s a game center. So it’s a really delicate balance.

01;00;24;02 – 01;00;43;27
Nicci
And so she came in, she was over salted and I was like, all right, Problem-Solving, let’s go. What do we do? So I went and talked to the medic. We’re like, she needs to eat some protein. We need to do these these these assess the situation. So I like I mean, you hear me? I’m getting excited because my I get I got to be in service of through that role of her.

01;00;44;01 – 01;01;06;02
Nicci
And I still got to be in this community in this running and problem solve and like watch do did I bring my values? How did I behave? Was I in service and like, was I a leader? All those things that you think of a good leader. Did I show up that way is what I would ask myself.

01;01;06;08 – 01;01;08;03
Jon
Did a before we serve, right?

01;01;08;13 – 01;01;08;23
Nicci
Yes.

01;01;11;19 – 01;01;33;28
Jon
I can’t help but think like oh, let’s just put a put a unformed idea on the table and see what we can do with it. But, you know, I see a connection. If light doesn’t exist, without darkness, despair, that joy, that idea we’ve been playing with, then there’s something about the pursuit. Doesn’t matter without serving. Hmm.

01;01;33;28 – 01;01;35;04
Nicci
That’s interesting.

01;01;35;04 – 01;01;41;03
Jon
Right? Because because I’m thinking about as like, well, is it true? And that’s the thing I was struggling with. So I was like, I should start an ugly idea out there and see what I could do with it.

01;01;41;03 – 01;01;44;29
Nicci
But if so, serving who go with that? Who’s serving.

01;01;46;00 – 01;02;07;23
Jon
Others? Mm. Others, not the self. Mm hmm. Because it starts, like, once the journey transitions from like, I want to do this many miles to, oh, my goodness, I’m transforming myself to something better. Once that transition takes place, it’s like a switch gets turned on where it begins to outflow. And like you made a comment, your parents taught your mom kindness, your dad grit.

01;02;08;02 – 01;02;29;27
Jon
Never by word, but by example. Right. It was who they were. It poured out. And because it poured out, it influenced you. It’s like you’re put in warm water. You get warmer cold water, you get colder. You’re in that environment and influenced you. Well, the same thing when it becomes transformational versus check the block. Mm hmm. It changes the energy you put out, right?

01;02;30;00 – 01;02;50;18
Jon
So it changes the temperature. And with that, you can’t it’s like, well, you can’t hide a light and dark room. You see it. Well, the same thing happens when you start to become something new. You can’t hide that. It’s what you are. Right. So as it begins to influence things, it becomes more and more natural to just out let it pour out because you’re giving freely of access.

01;02;51;05 – 01;03;13;22
Jon
So, like, to continue putting on this hopefully not terribly muddy. I’m with you idea if this is true, which I do believe it is from listening to your experience and for mine, just thinking about it then as time comes on, it would be a perversion of it to not find more and more ways to connect and serve others with the lessons learned and the transformation Mm hmm.

01;03;13;25 – 01;03;28;28
Jon
So, like, if you refused to pay your friend, if you refuse to pour back into people and pay it forward. Right. Which is one Jeremiah’s huge things. Pay it forward. Then it almost starts to poison the. Well. Yeah, I think it would.

01;03;29;04 – 01;03;29;17
Nicci
Yes.

01;03;29;18 – 01;03;34;22
Jon
Yes. It distort it and push it back to now you’re pursuing metrics and not the joy of the journey.

01;03;34;25 – 01;03;35;07
Nicci
Yes.

01;03;35;17 – 01;03;35;27
Jon
Right.

01;03;36;18 – 01;03;57;29
Nicci
So let me know you’re on to something really big. So I have a larger idea to add on to that. But but a real life example of up until the 200 like to also be very clear, like all of the way I’m talking now and the things that I care about now are because I think I worked really hard to do that.

01;03;57;29 – 01;04;24;20
Nicci
I think I the 200 helped make me less proud, less selfish and less anxious. And I in a lot of ways was very like head down, drive, drive, drive, achieve achieve, achieve. And something softened in me after that race, literally, like I can feel my shoulders call me something literally physically, chemically, mentally, emotionally. All of it changed in me.

01;04;25;09 – 01;04;42;12
Nicci
And it, it. That race happened in September, maybe a couple of months by December when I’m starting to plan my next year and think about what am I, you know, what are my what’s my theme for the year? And we can talk about that in a second. But yeah, I decided that 20, 21 was going to be a year of giving back.

01;04;42;23 – 01;05;01;29
Nicci
I wanted to give back to other racers. So my goal was to pace as many people as I could to volunteer to as many places as I could and give back now this was something that wasn’t of my own mind. It was John Lacroix in the culture he’s created within his community is like, if you’re a runner, you’re also a volunteer because you’re going to come to these races.

01;05;01;29 – 01;05;23;17
Nicci
You’re going to do both eventually. Maybe not, certainly not. Maybe at the same time. One of the guys this year who ran the 200 Harry, he was like, he ran in like 65 hours. And then like, I don’t know, put a hat on and started flipping burgers for other runners. So like maybe you are volunteering and running at the same time, but he’s really taught me to bring that identity to, to this sport.

01;05;23;23 – 01;05;49;01
Nicci
Yeah. So yes, I do think that there was maybe I was headed down a scary path of like isolated achievement, really like crazy head down, like, just not a great version. Then I say that now I look back on that now, but again, there is no obstacle. Those things were the way those I needed to go through that in order to get here.

01;05;49;01 – 01;06;07;23
Nicci
And there’s things that are happening to me now and I want to continue to improve. But so, so there’s, there’s that the perversion idea is if you don’t share it and don’t give back, that feels like a real loss again. At the end of my life, do I look back and say like, what was this? Am I proud of that?

01;06;09;00 – 01;06;18;08
Nicci
So there’s that. But then this other thing you’re talking about with like, I lost it, now I forget shoe.

01;06;18;08 – 01;06;19;23
Jon
But it’ll, it’ll come back and it’ll.

01;06;19;23 – 01;06;20;09
Nicci
Come back.

01;06;20;10 – 01;06;42;09
Jon
So while we’re hoping that it boomerangs on us, the thing that jumps into my mind that I do think is a really good I don’t it’s kind of a critique, you know, we’re honing this idea together, right? So something I think you made it better on is there is a seasonality to it. If I could transfer Mason So there is a time where it’s like I’m just pursuing doing the 50 miles, right?

01;06;42;09 – 01;07;08;21
Jon
I just want to do the 100 and that’s necessary in some way because you are kind of locking yourself in a prison cell to get to a certain place. Like it’s you’re not being nice to yourself. So like there is a necessity I think for that in my mind it’s almost there’s like a switch. I think that gets hit when it we’ve been talking about it, there was a turning point where it went from the the mileage to the journey.

01;07;09;05 – 01;07;32;06
Jon
And at that turning point, I think after that there’s the realization if you keep yourself questioning and open to realize like, oh, I want to give back more, whether that’s directly through like volunteering or indirectly through just talking with someone else who’s running or going and running alongside or what have you. And that’s that transformation point where it’s like, well, if I have something, I want to share it and make it better, right?

01;07;33;06 – 01;07;53;06
Jon
Because it it serves me at the same time, it’s serving. It’s like there’s no scarcity right there. Like there’s this lie. And I was thinking about this, you know, it’s not even a critique, but like Joe Rogan shows pretty cool. He’s sitting down with like the top 1% of incredible human beings. But the disservice I think people self-imposed.

01;07;53;06 – 01;08;02;01
Jon
It’s like, oh, that’s for them, right? And that’s one of the things I hope that these types of conversations start to strip away, like the extraordinary is all around us.

01;08;02;06 – 01;08;02;19
Nicci
Yes.

01;08;02;23 – 01;08;23;00
Jon
And if we can honor that, then we can start to realize it’s not just for them, it’s for all of us. There’s no pie that once fully taken up, there’s no more extraordinary potential. Right. We can just grow what we can do as a species and as a people if we believe and just jump in. So it’s kind of like these all these fun things are.

01;08;23;13 – 01;08;28;24
Nicci
Yes. To strip it down so good. I think it came back to me.

01;08;28;25 – 01;08;29;09
Jon
Yes.

01;08;29;20 – 01;08;59;23
Nicci
So you’re talking about as we pursue and practice excellence for ourselves, we naturally transform ourselves into this thing that becomes an offering. It’s more peaceful, more loving more patient. And as a result of that, it’s like there’s this or around us that if anyone comes in to that aura and maybe that aura, your creating is right here in this room, or maybe it is on Instagram.

01;08;59;23 – 01;09;27;14
Nicci
But whatever that aura in is, the person who comes into it, maybe life just isn’t so hard for that moment. And as a result of that, we can we can do what it is we want to do. Whether that solve the world’s problems or just be there for each other, I don’t know. But that the aura is the environment in which we are going to best be able to move forward.

01;09;27;14 – 01;09;52;13
Nicci
And I want to connect that to like the strip it down all the way to the simplest thing, which is I think I was listening to the Dan Harris podcast and this woman was on and she said something like, We’re all just walking each other home. I’m like, So what did Buddha say? Like, pain is like a guarantee, but suffering is optional.

01;09;52;27 – 01;10;16;05
Nicci
So if we’re all walking around in pain because life is really hard, what if this aura and the work we’re doing, at least for a brief moment, offers each other like an opportunity to not suffer? And I think these ideas all came from my mom. I mean, I’d come home from school and be like, Mom, someone’s trying to beat me up, and she’s like, Nicci or you don’t know what someone is going through.

01;10;16;16 – 01;10;37;12
Nicci
And we would see just for years, that was her stance. And even we’d come home and she like Nicci. Did you see anyone eating lunch alone? Did you invite them over? And so it was this constant reinforcement of empathy and compassion. And that’s the aura come into this place where it’s okay, it’s going to be okay.

01;10;38;15 – 01;10;40;10
Jon
Empathy, compassion and awareness.

01;10;42;11 – 01;10;47;25
Jon
Right. Because, like, you saw that they wanted to fight you. She made you see, were they alone?

01;10;48;27 – 01;10;51;22
Nicci
Yes. Amen.

01;10;51;28 – 01;10;59;10
Jon
Yes, it this is fun. I’m having a blast. This is good. Whatever direction things are going, I’m very.

01;10;59;10 – 01;11;04;24
Nicci
Yeah, you should we should get Barbie Bosco in here. She’s like the original. Is she G. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01;11;04;26 – 01;11;05;24
Jon
I’m going to have to look her up.

01;11;05;25 – 01;11;06;04
Nicci
Yeah.

01;11;06;12 – 01;11;33;25
Jon
The it just feels like affirmation. Mm. You know? Yes. Because we were so transparent about, like, some of the musings, even with these conversations, like, where we’re going in this, it just feels so affirming of the who cares what these organizations that profit sometimes are trying to make you think is normal pursue what is actually right and find.

01;11;33;26 – 01;11;56;03
Jon
I love that we’re all walking each other home because, like, if it’s good and it’s valuable, it will grow to whatever level it needs to to be that way. If that’s the pursuit and the idea that came to my mind with the aura, right? Like this, this you walk into this scenario, it’s like it’s winsome, right? It’s something that it’s attractive.

01;11;56;23 – 01;12;18;07
Jon
And because it’s attractive, it gets people’s curiosity and interest and they want to understand why. What is this thing that I’m sensing, this piece, this attractiveness? And then in that you’re right, you help them even just maybe momentarily and maybe not even intentionally. Just by being present in the conversation would have you transcend the suffering for just a minute, maybe.

01;12;18;23 – 01;12;19;03
Nicci
Yeah.

01;12;19;16 – 01;12;20;29
Jon
And that can change everything.

01;12;21;03 – 01;12;21;16
Nicci
Yes.

01;12;22;03 – 01;12;23;29
Jon
Mm. And then the journey continues.

01;12;24;04 – 01;12;24;16
Nicci
Yes.

01;12;24;25 – 01;12;25;20
Jon
It’s really cool.

01;12;26;24 – 01;12;28;07
Nicci
It’s really cool. Yeah.

01;12;33;18 – 01;12;59;27
Nicci
One of my phrases that I think I probably said a lot growing up in you know, as the oldest child I’m very aware of, like, maybe, you know, how overzealous I probably was, but also owning that and this is a me one of my favorite phrases was don’t tell me what to do. And so it’s probably been very difficult to, to raise me.

01;13;00;21 – 01;13;22;08
Nicci
Probably you’ve been difficult to date me, but I really like this part about myself because I want to figure things out for myself. I want to go see. And one of my favorite phrases from the book, Shadow Divers is not everything is what it seems or what people tell you.

01;13;22;23 – 01;13;23;02
Jon
Hmm.

01;13;23;07 – 01;13;47;14
Nicci
And so as I pursue my all my biggest goals, which is the Berkeley marathons, every time I say that to someone, I hear a lot of, like, negativity. And it’s actually a cut a cue to me that I’m on the right path if you all think this is wrong and like not good or whatever, or too tough or impossible cool.

01;13;48;01 – 01;13;57;20
Nicci
I’m Don’t tell me what to do. I’m on my own journey. I’m interested to find out you could be right, but I’m over here figuring it out from a maybe a different perspective.

01;14;01;24 – 01;14;24;25
Nicci
And to hold tight to that is really difficult. Yeah, it’s wildly difficult. And I say that with a lot of ease. But it’s really difficult if I’m training for this race that John Lacroix puts on through human potential called Nietes, it’s on April 9th. It’s 50 miles all off trail, bushwhacking through map and compass. Like, no one finished it last year, but it’s the Berkeley of the West.

01;14;26;00 – 01;14;53;04
Nicci
And so as I’m like training for this, I had a really good month in January, and then I hurt my neck and then, like, I didn’t rest enough and like, everything feels like out of control. But that’s actually normal because I have as I’ve watched myself, all of the training and the planning goes in these waves and even just before I on the drive here, I was like, oh, my gosh, like I did I have I take into any rest days.

01;14;53;04 – 01;14;59;07
Nicci
Am I not planning enough? Like, do I have all the safety gear? Like I need to order stuff on Amazon? It’s this chatter.

01;14;59;10 – 01;14;59;25
Jon
Yeah.

01;15;00;17 – 01;15;30;10
Nicci
And the people who are like, this isn’t going to work, blah, blah, blah. Like, Berkeley is stupid. Or my own mind who is like, oh my gosh. Freaking out about all these details, if I can remember. Don’t tell me what to do. I can get back to that inner citadel and I can get to a place that reminds me that it’s my mind that’s going to get me through that race, and it’s my preparation around that mind and willing to stay connected to that.

01;15;30;14 – 01;15;51;05
Nicci
So it’s my meditation in the morning. It’s my ability to shut down those thoughts in the car. It’s my ability to go do something that I don’t want to do. So it’s those things that I actually probably should be writing on my Runner’s World calendar, because what I track are my miles I wonder if I started tracking my like mind habits and start.

01;15;51;05 – 01;15;51;27
Nicci
I don’t know.

01;15;52;13 – 01;15;53;25
Jon
I think we just found something.

01;15;53;25 – 01;15;54;07
Nicci
Yeah.

01;15;55;03 – 01;16;02;27
Jon
I want to I want to see the thoughts of the day more so than the metrics accomplished. Mm hmm.

01;16;05;01 – 01;16;09;06
Jon
That would be interesting. Even if it’s both.

01;16;10;04 – 01;16;43;28
Nicci
Yeah. Yeah. Like journaling, like, is a habit. I’m trying to continue to practice. Morning. And night. But one thing I was doing that seemed really interesting and helpful before the 200 was Nike has like the five tenets of it’s like, it’s like movement, sleep, mindset, recovery and nutrition. And so at the end of every single day, the six months leading up to the 200, I would write those five words at my journal and I would give myself a score, and then I would write like information on why I gave myself that score.

01;16;44;28 – 01;17;08;03
Nicci
Now, the movement you know, that’s right. We can push ourselves. That’s easy. But the recovery got to work on that. The sleep, the mindset, the nutrition like these things were new to me. And so yeah, like the movement goes on my calendar every single day, but I’m not right now in the habit of those things right now. Like, I don’t know.

01;17;08;20 – 01;17;29;18
Jon
That’s a really interesting thing. Like, it’s just the chaos doesn’t change. In fact, the requirements gets heavier, right? It’s like training for a marathon versus 208 miles difference. But you have more clarity and bandwidth, which is a wild thing. The harder the strain, the more limitless you become to now where you’re like, All I could focus on was that and it got me there.

01;17;29;18 – 01;17;49;04
Jon
It’s like, Whoa, I’m leaving for other things off the table. What happens if I start leveling them on? And then I was thinking even with like the recovery piece, well, why don’t I meal prep for recovery, make it as easy as possible? The other things that you could do to is like schedule, like, you know, the miles you’re going to run, you have a modeling plan, you could schedule some smokes, right?

01;17;49;05 – 01;18;06;03
Jon
You can schedule your walks. You can schedule them with partners. You can you can literally make your recovery plan so that with the same joy of intentionality that you pursue the race you can pursue the goal of healing so that you can continue the next cycle. Yes. And it’s all just cycles.

01;18;06;15 – 01;18;06;27
Nicci
Yes.

01;18;07;03 – 01;18;25;00
Jon
And that’s something that’s fun that I’m learning as I’m sharing the idea that you shared with me. It’s like that’s why I’m lost right now also is because I’m recovering. I’m trying to get some baseline functionalities back that I lost to get to the last goal. But I’ve set my parameters for what I want that to look like.

01;18;25;12 – 01;18;46;10
Jon
But I did not. I’m realizing this. I’m speaking to myself I guess is what I’m trying to say. It’s like if I did this or as I discover what the next milestone is going to be to help me better reach the direction I want to go, then once I’ve determined the milestone, I can create the recovery plan now.

01;18;46;10 – 01;18;50;00
Jon
So then it’s just put into place once ever I get there.

01;18;50;07 – 01;18;50;18
Nicci
Yes.

01;18;50;18 – 01;18;52;07
Jon
And that’s kind of a cool thing to play with.

01;18;52;13 – 01;19;13;22
Nicci
Yes. And it’s my hope that all of this body of work I am going to draw on and use when I do get to my Berkeley race, which I gave myself a goal in 20, 16, I said in ten years I will attempt this race for the first time. It may take me my entire life to actually accomplish it.

01;19;14;17 – 01;19;41;02
Nicci
But when I get there and I imagine myself in this race and facing the most difficult, most vise grip, the toughest thing I’ve ever experienced, that this body of work is going to very quickly show me that this uncertainty is really an opportunity. And if I can cross that bridge quicker in the race, I need every second I can get in a six that 60 hour race, I’m going to need it.

01;19;41;02 – 01;19;44;29
Nicci
So I hope that by the time I get there, I’ve harness that enough.

01;19;45;13 – 01;20;19;21
Jon
It’s preparation to quickly get into the tension in between and then transcend it, which is super cool because what I’m realizing from our conversation is we’re talking about the skill. Well, here’s how I’m seeing it now. We’re talking about developing the skill to tap in to that higher level of existence. That transcendent moments of I’m past my own limitations and I’m living in the freedom of the freedom in relative safety of this thing I’ve cultivated, which is kind of cool thought.

01;20;20;16 – 01;20;21;16
Nicci
The place on the inside.

01;20;21;16 – 01;20;40;06
Jon
Yeah, the place on the inside. Like I’ve been able to peel away and strip away the the distractions to be in this flow state. Right? I’m here. I’m now I’m being and you have to every time the barrier, the, the guard in the way is getting through that tension, through that difficulty, through that pain. So it’s all learning.

01;20;40;06 – 01;20;46;02
Jon
How can I navigate through that more swiftly to get into that state right.

01;20;46;08 – 01;20;46;23
Nicci
Yes, which.

01;20;46;23 – 01;20;47;17
Jon
Is super cool.

01;20;47;20 – 01;21;14;28
Nicci
And to be clear, like some I mean, but swiftly and still honoring that taking a clear discernment of the problem. Like I love this description of optimism that it is like not in ignoring of the problem, but taking a calculated understanding of what it is and still believing that it is going to get better operating through the tension with that mindset.

01;21;15;11 – 01;21;29;25
Nicci
And so one thing I actually worked on with my coach is she’s like, Nicci, actually something happened to work where they were like, you can’t apply for this role. And I got angry. I’m like, I feel anger. She’s Nicci, I want you to feel that because I know you and I know you’re going to be like, It’s going to be fine.

01;21;29;25 – 01;21;42;08
Nicci
Positive attitude goes. She’s like, Don’t skip it. Don’t skip the anger. Don’t skip the despair. Yeah, get through it. Take a calculated understanding, look at it, face it, and then decide.

01;21;42;22 – 01;21;58;24
Jon
I’m really glad you called that out because the I’m just grateful that you brought back the honor it because the last thing would be to try and, like, chip in and hack it. It’s not a freaking hack that it’s like we’re both grimacing even saying. It’s like, Oh, no, no, don’t do that. But that you’re right.

01;21;58;24 – 01;22;00;14
Nicci
It’s can’t hack it.

01;22;00;21 – 01;22;19;11
Jon
Yeah. No, you can’t. No, you can’t. But the idea that came to mind mastery you respect something that you learn to master. And it’s, it’s really mastering the journey that the ability to go through those, right? Like you talked about pushing through and experiencing it and just learning how to navigate it, right? Learning to find a way through it.

01;22;19;29 – 01;22;44;04
Jon
There’s a mastery there that there’s no there’s no shortcuts for. And because there’s no shortcuts, you have to respect it because the cost never changes. You just learn how to better pay it. And because you have to pay it, you respect it and that and I just really want to solidify that idea that the caution you brought in this is not a means to try to cheapen or get there.

01;22;45;01 – 01;22;52;18
Jon
More quickly. It’s to get there more effectively and efficiently and fully. It’s all of those things, right? It’s like full.

01;22;52;18 – 01;23;08;20
Nicci
Immersion. Yes. Because what if I’m not getting to this joy of which I described as like so profound and big? It’s not just like this word, joy. It’s like all of these things what if I I’m not accessing that without the despair.

01;23;08;24 – 01;23;09;04
Jon
Yeah.

01;23;09;16 – 01;23;16;29
Nicci
I don’t know. But what if and then honoring that despair then becomes a vital aspect.

01;23;17;04 – 01;23;35;20
Jon
One of the basic things we’re talking about, too, is like we’re saying that’s okay. It’s okay to be angry. It’s okay to feel despair. Oh, right. I think that maybe one of the things that stops these types of conversations from happening, it’s like, oh, we should just be happy. No. Right. And we started with despair, and we’re the same, right?

01;23;35;20 – 01;23;39;16
Jon
This whole thing is like, it’s okay if you feel terrible, you probably should.

01;23;39;17 – 01;23;42;28
Nicci
Yes. Yeah. Figure that out. Yes, I understand why. Yes.

01;23;42;28 – 01;24;09;06
Jon
And then you start to get further and further, which is what’s just came to mind is we’re not trying to grasp it’s learning to let go of the wrong things and hold on to the right things. But without going through that, yeah, it’s just like I’m here and I’m not clinging to anything. I’m, I’m, I’m holding on to the belief that there’s a finish line I can’t see.

01;24;09;06 – 01;24;10;10
Nicci
Yes. Yes.

01;24;10;16 – 01;24;27;05
Jon
On the belief that Joy, where’s the cloak of despair? Right. I’m holding on to these beliefs. But that’s all the circumstances, the moments, the experiences I am cherish trying to fully consume and be a part of.

01;24;27;28 – 01;24;55;23
Nicci
Right? Yes. Like something that’s coming to mind for me with that is one belief I brought with me in my mental backpack. Yeah. During the race was that a lot of people would ask me, like, how do you train for 200 miles? Like, Oh, my God. Like, there’s really no answer for that. I can share with you what I did physically, but I knew that I would face things in the race that I’ve never seen or never faced or never experienced.

01;24;56;03 – 01;25;22;18
Nicci
And the belief I carried with me is that I believe I can do what I can’t see. So regardless of what comes to me, I am going to figure it out. And so I’m actually working on trying to apply this now to motherhood. So I’ll be like really open with you and everyone else. I’m an open book. I’ve decided this year that I want to become a mother, and so I’m working on doing that on my own.

01;25;23;01 – 01;25;49;27
Nicci
LinkedIn has some great fertility benefits. I’m going to try hopefully IVF at some point this year. Okay. And when I think about motherhood, I’ve got all these wonderful men and women in my life who have shared what parenthood is like. And so specifically motherhood and being a single mother by choice, I’m I’m thinking about like all the information I got about how difficult parenthood is and taking all that into consideration and knowing that I’m just going to figure it out when I get there.

01;25;49;27 – 01;26;02;08
Nicci
And what if everything isn’t my shadow diverse? Quote again, like as people tell me or as it seems, what if I can approach this the way I think?

01;26;03;26 – 01;26;09;00
Jon
I think that’s beautiful. And I want to I want to continue. We need I hope this is not the last time we sit down.

01;26;09;01 – 01;26;09;12
Nicci
Okay.

01;26;09;19 – 01;26;19;18
Jon
All right. I think there’s a lot that we’re just not going to even be able to touch on today. And I’d love to keep exploring with you but like with the parenting thing, I have four kids. You were bombarded by them when you got here.

01;26;19;19 – 01;26;20;20
Nicci
Oh, they’re so lovely.

01;26;21;06 – 01;26;21;29
Jon
They are.

01;26;22;15 – 01;26;25;22
Nicci
And I would love to sit and talk with them. You should. Okay.

01;26;25;24 – 01;26;45;20
Jon
That would be fun. We’ll do it. The thing that’s fun, one of the things that I’m really passionate about, I guess it was kind of, one, the catalyst to get me like wanting to start these different businesses and these different adventures was like, who are you to tell me that? Because I have a bunch of kids, I can’t do more.

01;26;46;18 – 01;26;49;29
Nicci
Right? Like, Oh, don’t tell me what to do.

01;26;50;02 – 01;27;06;24
Jon
Don’t tell me what to do. And in fact, I took it a step further and maybe there’s some unhealthy meme as part of this and they’ll get flushed down the journey. But it’s like, you’re right, because you told me that I’m now going to make you eat it to the point that hopefully it changes your mind. And if not, then fluff off.

01;27;06;24 – 01;27;28;04
Jon
It’s my choice, or it’s like I’m going to do it, not despite them, but because of them. Yes, I want that example thing like I want them to see that I somehow found a way to be intentional and loving and connected with them, but also deny the imposition of limits from outside. Yeah, you know.

01;27;28;14 – 01;27;29;00
Nicci
Yes.

01;27;29;00 – 01;27;49;24
Jon
And my hope in that is one that it’s accomplished. But, but to that, then that can become part of that Aurora, that temperature. Right. That makes someone else think, holy crap, maybe you know, that’s enough. Just maybe, maybe I can maybe, maybe that and not discredit it to that person’s doing it.

01;27;50;12 – 01;27;55;26
Nicci
Yes. And like, I think that is like the optimism. An optimist believes the future is uncertain.

01;27;56;01 – 01;27;56;14
Jon
Yeah.

01;27;56;22 – 01;27;57;21
Nicci
Not determined.

01;27;57;29 – 01;28;00;27
Jon
There you go. That’s rock solid. So, like.

01;28;01;04 – 01;28;20;14
Nicci
And you’re going to do this and you may not even need to say anything to this person. The power of your example and you doing that and actually maybe not even saying anything is like the thing that is going to be like, I did it and I’m you. I know you see it. That’s enough.

01;28;20;14 – 01;28;41;10
Jon
I’m grateful you said that because it it is. And spoken in my mind. It sounds like I’m wanting to speak these things, but that’s not the case. I just want to live them and that’s it. And it’s interesting because this is like talking about the tension. If I can just remember like the thing if I can just remember that those children are a means for me.

01;28;41;10 – 01;29;14;09
Jon
To push through that resistance in their own right. Yeah. And that they are not the problem. Right. Because it’s very easy to become frustrated and to feel certain ways and to you had to go down that path. And it’s like a daily, minute by minute checking yourself sometimes. But and I’m reminding myself right now, they are the opportunity to push in and if I can see them as that and we can journey together in that, then how cool or the relationships that I’m going to build with my sons, you know, like what what influence?

01;29;14;09 – 01;29;24;05
Jon
What would they say? I taught them, you know, not by my words, but by how we experience life together. So I’m I’m super excited for you. Thank you. I can’t wait to see what.

01;29;24;06 – 01;29;24;20
Nicci
Yeah.

01;29;24;21 – 01;29;25;24
Jon
What you unlock in.

01;29;25;29 – 01;29;26;16
Nicci
Yeah.

01;29;26;21 – 01;29;28;18
Jon
What wild monsters you create, right?

01;29;28;24 – 01;29;32;21
Nicci
Oh, my God. I would love some little monsters running around. I would have four boys.

01;29;32;21 – 01;29;36;02
Jon
Let’s go, let’s go. I will say it keeps life so spicy.

01;29;36;07 – 01;30;04;29
Nicci
Yeah. Great. Yes. I mean, so what I’m hearing from you is, like, how wonderful it is to be able to wake up every day and offer and be in purpose. Because of another. You got to. They are your purpose. Yes, right there. That’s what I’m hearing from you and the house. Like Lucky and beautiful and like, wonderful. Is it to get to be that for another person?

01;30;05;07 – 01;30;32;17
Nicci
And like Victor Frankl, like, that’s what he said. Like, we our purpose is another human or like we’re finding meaning through a human or a thing. And that thing is like, what? I’m in service of maybe. Maybe if I don’t have children, I’m finding purpose over here with something. And so it’s like it’s not even children, but it’s maybe a family member, a friend, a neighbor, anybody, a stranger you find purpose in a human or a thing.

01;30;32;29 – 01;30;54;28
Jon
Yeah. Like you’re coaching through transition. And I want to bring to greater pointed ness this idea that I think we’re talking about. I think you’re wanting to discover it, but I hear you alluding to it. And it’s this thing of like, don’t tell me what to do, but culturally, people, I think, see kids as burdensome limits, limitations. And I think that’s a lie from the pit of hell.

01;30;54;28 – 01;31;01;01
Jon
I think the reality is they are catalysts for a version of yourself that is impossible to unlock.

01;31;01;10 – 01;31;01;24
Nicci
Yeah.

01;31;01;24 – 01;31;43;18
Jon
Until you have that brute that that weight and responsibility offered to you, it’s a gift because like in that gift, it’s like that the miles created all these things created in that gift, you have the opportunity to the you know, to become something that you couldn’t otherwise. And there should be such a gratefulness for that stimulus right. And then to think, and this is where it differs from long miles or heavy weight or whatever, you know, being choked out, whatever it may be, they’re directly being shaped to the core of their being by that experience.

01;31;43;18 – 01;31;57;15
Jon
So it’s like there’s this, ah, inspiring respect that it should do. And like it’s so easy because you’re talking about like, if I can just remember these things when I’m running, right? If I can just remember when they mouth off.

01;31;57;29 – 01;31;58;13
Nicci
Yes.

01;31;58;25 – 01;32;06;26
Jon
Then then maybe just fractionally we can get closer and better. Mhm. Right.

01;32;07;07 – 01;32;26;14
Nicci
Yes. Yes. That’s something I’m working on. It’s getting really curious about those moments and I’ve been working to be clear, I’ve been working out for a while like I think meditation and mindfulness like my 10% app. Your app gives me data like here’s how many minutes you’ve meditated since you started this app three years ago and it’s insane.

01;32;26;28 – 01;32;50;09
Nicci
And I still have to work on it. And my coach Samantha is still telling me, Nicci, when you’re in this moment of a crucible, can you step back and get curious like, yes, I know that I’m supposed to do that. And so I’m still practicing, still getting better. But that’s what I’m hearing you say is like the patients that might be required in a moment with a child and something of tension is going on.

01;32;51;18 – 01;33;08;19
Nicci
Same thing with like honoring the fear. The struggle is like, oh, this is what’s happening. Okay, can I get curious about this? Like, face it, look at it, feel it, feel this tension set because I’m separate from it. And now let’s, like, choose what happens next.

01;33;09;27 – 01;33;21;06
Jon
Yeah. The right commitments with the right mentality make us indomitable. And make us unstoppable. Mm. Figuring out the right mentality and the right commitments. It’s the journey.

01;33;22;00 – 01;33;44;01
Nicci
Yes. And it all is encompassed in love. So you trying to finish this article? I’m writing about this 200 mile, and it’s like a race report. And you see someone do a race, they do a race report and I’m still writing it. It’ll be two years in September. I’m still writing this thing. It’s like 15,000 words. I’ve had some friends help me edit and do these great things together.

01;33;44;24 – 01;33;58;13
Nicci
To create this and bring it to life. And really, I’m trying to write it for myself because I want to be able to look back and say, really what was encompassed in here? And the main throughline of it all, the main theme is love.

01;33;58;23 – 01;33;59;01
Jon
Yeah.

01;33;59;25 – 01;34;22;08
Nicci
Which is like what we were talking about was like interconnectedness and the joy. And it’s like love of myself and all of these things, these imperfections, love of it’s like the aura is love. If you come into this or you’re going to be offered like love and compassion and empathy, even if it’s like something really terrible is going on.

01;34;22;13 – 01;34;44;26
Nicci
Yes. So, like, the pursuit is love like it even though we’re talking about like choking out in Brazilian jujitsu. And it sounds like all of these things that are like and like pushing yourself up a mountain and like lifting heavy weights, like really intense. But it’s actually like a softening. This is what I believe. Yeah. It’s actually like a softening of slowing love.

01;34;45;11 – 01;34;48;22
Jon
I agree. In that love creates life. Mm hmm.

01;34;49;11 – 01;34;59;05
Nicci
And that’s like your offering going back to like what we’re saying of like, doing this pursuit yourself is like the gift outward.

01;35;00;06 – 01;35;09;16
Jon
Yes. And that’s where like, it’s difficult. And I think we’ve done a good job at it, but it can both feel so it feel selfish because it’s so inner focused.

01;35;09;17 – 01;35;09;26
Nicci
Yes.

01;35;10;05 – 01;35;36;09
Jon
But it’s not because it’s not that there’s more depth and dimension to it. Right. And it’s not to just, like, satisfy a craving. It’s to fulfill a yearning that in the fulfillment of that yearning, you were just creating something of value, right? That that goes in this cycle, this idea we’re honing that we’ve been honing this beautiful thing.

01;35;36;20 – 01;36;04;05
Jon
And I’m super excited because you’re about to get a new fuel source this next year for the first time. All these new opportunities through this, you know, through a gift of a child, hopefully, and I can’t wait to see how that transforms in and transforms in. Thank you for getting the word influences adds to the the mentality you’ve already created.

01;36;04;09 – 01;36;11;18
Nicci
Thank you. Yes. It’s gonna be so cool. I can’t wait. I can’t wait. I’m ready. I’m ready. Take me. Transform me. Yeah. Let’s go. Yeah.

01;36;12;01 – 01;36;13;07
Jon
Cool. Thank you so much.

01;36;13;07 – 01;36;13;24
Nicci
You’re welcome.

01;36;13;24 – 01;36;15;05
Jon
Thank you. You wanna do it again?

01;36;15;05 – 01;36;16;15
Nicci
Yes. All right, let’s go.

01;36;16;22 – 01;36;18;28
Jon
Given our track record, let’s get it on the books. Okay.

01;36;19;04 – 01;36;20;25
Nicci
Done, senior. Yeah.