Episode 29 from The Grit Theory.

Bad things happen all of the time for no reason or purpose, but we get to choose how we will respond to them. Today we discuss loss, grief, pain, and the means to positively navigate them as individuals, parents, and leaders.

Highlights include:
– The “Cocktail of Despair” = Greif + Loss + Pain + Fear + Isolation + Division
– Leading family through loss.
– Ways to approach and heal through grief.
– Taking ownership despite the cost.
– Mourn while you work, mourn while you lead. Life will continue in spite of loss.
– “Let it in, let it last, let it fade” -unkown.
– Choosing to come together.

Did you find value in today’s conversation? SHARE IT! 

Also, check out Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be waymakers HERE.

Do you want to learn more? Check out:

The Book: Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be WayMakers.

The Podcast: “Be Relentless Podcast”

The Fuel: Sisu Stamina, Performance Evolved

Linktree: Here.

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Episode Transcript

00;00;00;03 – 00;00;03;00

Jon

All right. Here we go. Okay. Good morning, everyone. Hello.

00;00;03;04 – 00;00;04;04

Aaron

Good morning.

00;00;04;16 – 00;00;12;06

Jon

What you will not see because it’s so necessary is the absolute atrocity of 90 seconds. It took care of tonight to get going on this record.

00;00;12;06 – 00;00;17;20

Aaron

So it’s like a tone deaf person clapping along to a fun song. Just trying to.

00;00;18;05 – 00;00;20;21

Jon

Clap, clapping off, Take off tone.

00;00;20;21 – 00;00;22;07

Aaron

Do it. Speak this way.

00;00;22;19 – 00;00;41;06

Jon

So, hey, things are real things here and they’re not always pretty or perfect. So which is actually a really good tie in to what you and I want to talk to. You know, just a reminder, are our show everything that you and I do here when it’s our show. So we talk about what we want, which just feels good, even say, yeah, in two, it’s a journey, right?

00;00;41;06 – 00;01;03;27

Jon

Every conversation with guests and with each other. Our journeys of exploration in something, right? With the guests. It’s more of them with each other. It’s exploring topic so we don’t have pre-scripted stuff. And I think that’s a valuable thing to point to every once in a while, because so many shows are pretty scripted. We put in thought in preparation, but we don’t script our conversation.

00;01;04;00 – 00;01;08;02

Aaron

It’s like a living journal all about. It is like reflecting on this.

00;01;08;02 – 00;01;31;19

Jon

It’s an adventure. Yeah, right. It’s a it’s a conversational thought adventure. And and that’s why it’s so fun to say, Hey, welcome and thank you for joining us today on our journey and, you know, one reminder, the show isn’t free. So if you are inspired today, if you’re encouraged, if you’re convicted for Challenge day, please pay it forward sharing, share it with others who you think could benefit from this adventure and conversation.

00;01;32;17 – 00;01;56;13

Jon

So looking today, you’re talking about dealing with difficult things, right? And there we’re starting to see a lot of pushback on things that have become normal, right, socially, politically, communally, across the spectrum. And one of the things you see, too, is like a critique of social media for, you know, causing depression and further isolation, because what does everyone post?

00;01;56;23 – 00;02;21;07

Jon

Everyone posts these beautiful things, right? They post the best 2% of their lives and it creates this mis belief, this this lie that their life is this gorgeous 2% when there’s 90 other 98% across the spectrum from crappy to great and you know that that’s an unfortunate thing. So today we’re talking about the other 98% really.

00;02;21;13 – 00;02;36;29

Aaron

And that’s that’s real. I don’t think that people realize how much we do convince ourselves that people’s lives are really that good all the time. No one does a selfie during a fight, you know, and or it’s really difficult. Like this is ugly stuff.

00;02;36;29 – 00;02;49;16

Jon

And there’s there’s you know, we’re talking about stewarding pain today. So let’s just frame that in real, real hard and early. And then let’s play with that for another minute. But we’re talking about stewarding pain. What do we mean by stewarding pain? What does what the heck a stewardship.

00;02;50;08 – 00;03;19;17

Aaron

You know, Can I can I just start with framing a bit? Yeah, I so there are and I owe a lot of why we’re talking about this because you’re you’re going through right now very it’s very, very real. I’m going through some loss right now. Family dog loved favorite family dog just last two days ago. You call me Miss the call, see the texts, call you.

00;03;19;29 – 00;03;39;17

Aaron

It’s bad. Show up at the house and we’re literally burying your family dog, right? It’s not like a fun situation. It’s like the only thing you do is a friend. When you hear that happens is I’ll be right there. That’s. Yeah, that’s the only appropriate response. So what do you do.

00;03;39;27 – 00;03;57;06

Jon

Well in that and that’s what you did. So, you know, dog, I had my truck, you know, drag in me. I’ll give you a call. Okay. If you can come help gig, that’d be great, right? You dropped. Everything came. So that is a true testament friendship, right? We talk a lot about who’s willing to answer the call when needed, Right?

00;03;57;07 – 00;04;17;15

Aaron

And if it weren’t for this podcast right now, or even whatever you want to share on social media, it’s certainly not like this picture moment. Like I’m in a frame by frame. Talk about this. This time I’m going through. No, no one does. Although on some level I wish people would to go, Hey, this is real. This is like, hey, this is a moment where I’m really doing with this.

00;04;17;22 – 00;04;27;23

Aaron

This is this is shaping me in some way. This is going to shape my thoughts going forward. I’m not just always smiling all the time. Sometimes I’m. I’m weeping. Yeah.

00;04;28;24 – 00;04;30;13

Jon

Yeah. And there’s been some weeping.

00;04;30;16 – 00;04;53;01

Aaron

We did. Yeah. And so I wanted to bring it up because I should, you know, I questioned even saying this to you. I mean, we’re digging this this hole, and it’s like, this is an awful circumstance. And I get I don’t know if it’s nerves or anything. Maybe someone out there is like me and they just make jokes when when things are too serious or too thick.

00;04;53;19 – 00;05;10;07

Aaron

And I’m just I said I said, well, this isn’t I guess I guess I got you off Instagram, didn’t I, John, for a minute, you know, and I’m thinking to myself, What the hell am I? Why did I say that? That’s like, if you should just say nothing and take this whole and just get through this really difficult time.

00;05;10;14 – 00;05;28;03

Aaron

Your wife is there, You know, it’s like I’m trying to I, I just feel I feel that tense tension there. But, I mean, you’re walking through it in a healthy way, but it’s hard. Yeah, but you’re So then what is your response? I didn’t know you did this, so I’m like, at least you know.

00;05;28;24 – 00;05;30;14

Jon

Well, yeah, it’s funny because you did it.

00;05;30;14 – 00;05;32;00

Aaron

Not time to take pictures. A John.

00;05;32;00 – 00;05;50;10

Jon

You did hit a nerve. And like, right now I picture if you’re building a rope, right, you have a lot of fiber strands that could bound together to create a rope. Right. And in our conversations, I see five strands that I want to tie together to the rope so that we can’t ruin in your conversation. So there’s a few pieces to that.

00;05;50;10 – 00;06;13;23

Jon

So I’m going to try to bind this up real quick so we can continue forward in a unified fashion. And because we’ve talked about, like I said, five things in the last few minutes. So the first thing that I’m thinking about is stewardship, right? Well, what is stewardship? Stewardship is the the task or job or position of supervising or taking care of something, something.

00;06;13;23 – 00;06;40;16

Jon

And there is a strong Christian connotation to the word, right, where I think it’s probably most widely used today. And that has an additional implication with the word, which would be to right. It’s a special responsibility to guard it, use it and cultivate it wisely. Right. So the end is more in mind. And not being wasteful is a heavy implication.

00;06;40;16 – 00;07;00;06

Jon

So I think if you look at it, regardless of your beliefs through this to context, it kind of gives this idea of like, okay, well, what does stewarding pain look like? It’s because that’s what we’re talking about today. And I know we’ll come to that a lot, but that’s the central core thing. It’s like, how do you cultivate, utilize and guard?

00;07;00;06 – 00;07;04;20

Jon

What can come from pain wisely, right? To create something good?

00;07;04;20 – 00;07;08;23

Aaron

Well, you’re wise to identify it right away, you know, because what are we stewarding?

00;07;09;00 – 00;07;09;09

Jon

Mm.

00;07;09;22 – 00;07;12;00

Aaron

It’s like your happiness. No, not right now.

00;07;12;10 – 00;07;12;21

Jon

No.

00;07;13;15 – 00;07;14;07

Aaron

We’re not doing that.

00;07;14;23 – 00;07;37;16

Jon

Yeah, it’s interesting, because I have to give a shutdown credit to my wife, Lindsey, because she’s the one who’s like, Hey, there’s all these things out there where it’s talking about managing and stewarding money, right? Marriage, relationships, business resources. But there’s no one who really talks about stewarding and managing pain with the end in mind to utilize these things wisely and and there’s a lot that comes into that.

00;07;37;16 – 00;07;45;12

Jon

And that’s what you and I have been talking about the last few days, right, With the experience of us losing our favorite and best dog, you know, and needing to bury her.

00;07;45;12 – 00;07;52;01

Aaron

The irony is we shared I think you shared a podcast with me right before this happened about this very subject, about studying suffering.

00;07;52;15 – 00;07;54;28

Jon

Yeah. Gets suffering, loss, grief, pain.

00;07;55;12 – 00;08;02;15

Aaron

And it was like and in the moment it was sort of like, Man, that’s really profound. And then you walk through it, get in it’s way more profound.

00;08;02;15 – 00;08;20;28

Jon

Well, and that’s something that’s really fun because I realize that we’re cultivating a way of life here in a mindset, right, with the types of conversations you and I have. And on this show, what I realized walking through this is it has become so much a part of my thought. It’s become of who it’s become a part of who I am.

00;08;21;09 – 00;08;47;09

Jon

So even walking through, you know, a very ugly death, right? It wasn’t a clean like in your sleep type of thing and digging the grave and all that stuff. I knew I would have had to have chosen a path of least of less resilience because I knew what needed done. So I would have had it chosen not to do what I needed done, which is such, I think, a cool outcome of the work we’ve been doing.

00;08;48;22 – 00;09;04;18

Jon

So so that’s kind of the core thread here and what we’re wrapping around that and like the joking with social media and some of these other things, it’s like there’s a lot of fake lies out there on what life is actually like. But the bottom line truth is bad things happen all the time for no reason whatsoever. There’s no y behind it.

00;09;04;18 – 00;09;29;28

Jon

There’s no good there’s no there’s no silver lining. But we have the power, authority and ability to choose how we respond. And we can create we can create something good out of something terrible, angry and and that good. It didn’t exist. It wasn’t there. But we can find it, create it, not even find it. We can freaking create it out of the ashes of loss.

00;09;30;09 – 00;09;44;03

Jon

And that is an empire empowering, inspiring colon. You know, the social media thing, in every joke, there’s a shred of truth, right? So like, I hate social media despite my posting, but I.

00;09;44;03 – 00;09;47;22

Aaron

Use that’s why I poke you because I know that it.

00;09;47;26 – 00;09;53;23

Jon

Works for to it, but I use it. I’m trying to use it as a tool for personal development.

00;09;53;23 – 00;09;54;11

Aaron

Of course. Yeah.

00;09;54;11 – 00;10;02;02

Jon

Encouragement for others. Yeah. I swear if I didn’t get messages of like, thanks for some of the crap I put out there, I do anything.

00;10;02;11 – 00;10;22;07

Aaron

You know, and I’ll just give a shout out. John Like in the midst of this tough conversation, I do think what you’re posting is really fun. If you haven’t checked out Jon’s Instagram or Facebook, like the postings, they’re actually they’ll make you smile. They’ll encourage you, they’ll challenge you. I mean, they’re they’re really good. But, you know, I still I still have some fun with you because.

00;10;22;07 – 00;10;23;05

Jon

You’re it’s very fair.

00;10;23;07 – 00;10;28;15

Aaron

Yeah. I like the I got to I’m just insecure. I don’t do it as much as you. So therefore, I get to make fun of you. I guess.

00;10;29;00 – 00;10;47;04

Jon

So. And there’s a lot of dark jokes. All are digging that grave I wanted to do, but for my wife’s heart, I did write. Because, by the way, it’s a big dog. She’s larger than Lindsey, my wife. Yeah. She’s much like she’s probably 20, £30 larger than my life. Right. So that grave was a large grave today. It took us a couple of hours.

00;10;47;10 – 00;11;07;00

Aaron

It was a quite a bit of clay in that going on. We had a miner’s pic in the whole thing which Yeah, which, which was I think it was part of the healing process like because we had, I think we had other means to do that quicker. Yeah. And it was more like and you said this too, it’s like I need to do this by hand, I need to really embrace it.

00;11;07;19 – 00;11;40;13

Jon

There’s psychological benefit to giving yourself a physical means of letting go of something psychology, psychological. Right. And, you know, there’s a lot of data backing that, whether it’s writing it and throwing it away, whether it’s bearing it, giving yourself that physical ceremony of intentional release is important. So digging the grave, bearing our one, covering it up, taking the kids out, the kids without prompting, without thought, they naturally wanted to kind of pet the ground where she’s buried to say farewell.

00;11;40;15 – 00;11;53;28

Jon

Right. And then, you know, and we walk through that because I’m trying to raise men of courage and character, and that includes emotional intelligence in the ability to understand what they’re experiencing. So we walked through those emotions.

00;11;53;28 – 00;11;56;25

Aaron

Well, if you’ve ever put a hand on a casket, it’s the same kind of the same thing.

00;11;56;25 – 00;12;16;21

Jon

It’s goodbye. Yeah, we’re physical beings and that’s why we tie back to physical fitness and all these other things. It’s like we are not separate from our bodies. And. But you. You made this joke, and this is the final strand, and I think we’ve tied this road together. It’s pretty great as you’re digging your like, Yeah, No one post a picture of someone digging and like digging a grave, right?

00;12;16;22 – 00;12;38;00

Jon

It’s like, always meant to be funny or beautiful. So I snapped some ugly, blurry picture of you digging real quick. We have like this tiny little lantern we’re digging by, and I’d zero interest in being on Instagram, right? Because, you know, there’s a filter that I do apply for what I’ll put out in the world. But that’s not the glamorous versus the ugly.

00;12;38;00 – 00;12;49;02

Jon

It’s it’s what is not for you being, you know, outside of the inner circle. And what can be shared in that evening was for the people who were present going through the loss.

00;12;49;05 – 00;13;05;01

Aaron

Right. I think that that’s so funny. Ironic humor. I no one takes picture of someone very digging grave until now. Yeah, well, but I think what you’re what we’re saying, though, John, is that we don’t want anybody to think that they’re alone in this. Like, it’s not.

00;13;05;01 – 00;13;05;11

Jon

It’s.

00;13;05;12 – 00;13;23;26

Aaron

That’s it. If you’ve ever gone through horrible pain and you think you’re unique in it, or maybe you’re going through right now and it’s I mean, it’s hard to get out of bed like we’ve have been there and we don’t know your exact circumstance, but I tell you, the feeling is not uncommon. The man we we have, that commonality is true.

00;13;23;26 – 00;13;28;03

Aaron

What is what is different about us is how we’re going to handle it. And that’s kind of what we’re talking about today.

00;13;28;05 – 00;13;41;23

Jon

Well, we we are, I think, as humans are attracted to the genuine and the authentic right. And you know how to we don’t want some Ponzi, how to get rich, quick scheme for life and.

00;13;42;06 – 00;13;46;16

Aaron

How to grieve loss and five easy steps And yeah, it’s six weeks. That’s not how that works.

00;13;46;16 – 00;14;08;00

Jon

It’s raw and ugly, right? Yeah, but it’s everywhere. There’s terrible smells, there’s terrible sounds. You know, it’s it’s not fun. So, you know, when you made the joke, no one takes a picture of getting a grave. It’s like I’ve zero interest on being anywhere but here. But I just took the picture to post the next day because I knew would be a helpful reminder as part of the story here.

00;14;08;00 – 00;14;34;29

Jon

Right. And this is one of the problems with grief and loss and ugly things like this and pain is it has a you become defensive, right, because you want to avoid further discomfort and defensiveness often means isolation. Right? You pull in, you put up the guards, you you lock yourself away and that is a very dangerous thing. There’s times that works, right?

00;14;35;00 – 00;14;58;06

Jon

You touch something that’s hot, you burn yourself, you pull your hand back. But for most things, for most things, pain can become a catalyst towards division and isolation. Right? It can be an interim point into that journey away from a strong, strong relationships that make you more resilient. And, you know, that’s one of the reasons I took the picture we made.

00;14;58;06 – 00;15;24;20

Jon

The joke is I want if I’m going to spend the time putting stuff out there with what we’re doing on the grid theory, right? We are fighting for and towards unity and strength. Yeah. So was like, here’s a great example of something that’s not pretty. It sucks. It absolutely sucks. And by sharing it authentically and by taking the own freaking medicine that I’ve been sharing with everyone.

00;15;24;23 – 00;15;36;18

Jon

That we’ve been sharing with everyone. Yeah, I get to now, you know, I have the opportunity to actually exemplify the things we talk about through uncomfortable situation. Agreed.

00;15;36;20 – 00;15;58;16

Aaron

I think one of the things that you said recently, because at the time of this hearing, we’re we’re just days away from celebrating. Is that the right word? But remembering 20 the 20th anniversary of 911 and which which in for the first time in a long time, our whole nation wept together about something. We at least were unified.

00;15;58;16 – 00;16;22;27

Aaron

And this is a horrible thing that just happened to our nation. We lost something here right now. How are we going to go forward? How how are we going to grieve together? And you said you said that part of your grief process that you’ve noticed is that it’s really potent right now, that it’s like you need it to be potent because then you can repeat the potency.

00;16;22;27 – 00;16;41;15

Aaron

And you said that potency is lost in repetition. That was kind of I thought it was a profound thing to say. I think, though, the prerequisite is potency. I mean, if you repeating a lesser version or something, it’s like, this is what I can handle. Eventually you’re going to have to go back to the reality of how bad it was.

00;16;41;15 – 00;17;04;21

Aaron

And I’ve been I went to the 9/11 Museum Museum a few months back, and it’s it’s like you remember the steel beams that were made famous by, you know, all the the servicemen put their their patches all over the steel beam and it became sort of this iconic, you know, place of remembrance and in deep, deep grief of what was lost.

00;17;04;21 – 00;17;25;21

Aaron

And they have that there. And you’re getting closer to it. It’s like and museums are great. If they’re done well, it makes it potent again. It makes it really real again, as if it was it just had happened. And it’s it makes you feel the feelings again, which I think some would say I don’t want to I want to get away from that.

00;17;26;15 – 00;17;43;07

Aaron

But we’re saying you got to at some point, you got to press into it, and then that may take a counselor to help you walk through that. You know, like don’t be reckless about it, but getting staring that thing right in the eyes and feeling that feeling and letting and allowing that to stay for a while and deal with that is actually good.

00;17;43;22 – 00;18;05;07

Jon

Yeah, it is. And I think we’re talking about two things here, right? I think you just brought up two ideas. The one is let us not forget. Right, Right. And like with with 911, what I think what I hope we can remember, aside from the loss, is what that loss encouraged. Yes, that loss encouraged some pretty significant unification.

00;18;05;07 – 00;18;38;27

Jon

Yes. Right. And it’s like, okay, each time, remember the loss. Let’s remember what it produced in unification, right? Yeah. And and greater respect and love for our neighbor, you know. Oh, yeah. And and that’s the same with any loss, right? So, like, losing a dog is painful, but it’s not lost on me. The gratitude that I have that I am privileged enough to live a life that allows my family and I to deeply mourn the loss of a wonderful dog right.

00;18;38;27 – 00;18;58;09

Jon

I mean, we were talking about this earlier, but I think it’s important because we it’s so easy to get stuck in our little vacuums, like in North Korea to day, kids are eating rats that they catch with their hands that are eating the deceased humans around them. That’s a thing. The meat markets have undisclosed meat that’s for sale.

00;18;58;09 – 00;19;29;00

Jon

Everyone’s starving and the super cheap meat is allegedly often human flesh. There’s all these there’s the organ harvesting, right? There’s human trafficking and stuff. So in not just North Korea that spans most of the world. So or large swaths of the world. So like you look at all those things and it’s like, man, yeah, the fact that I live in such an existence where my dog has it’s, you know, a significant place in our family as a guardian, a protector companion.

00;19;29;06 – 00;19;59;13

Jon

And we can mourn that. It doesn’t cheapen the loss, but definitely makes me appreciative of my circumstances through the loss. And I think it’s valuable to take those types of things into perspective. Now, jumping from that when we’re looking at you made the comment when we’re talking about repetition removes or diminishes potency. Yeah, right. So it’s like, well, think about if you’re you’re training or let’s say you’re a writer, right?

00;19;59;13 – 00;20;17;07

Jon

The more you write, the easier it can become to write. The more you ride a bike, the easier it is to bounce. Right at the first couple of times you fall off, but you get to the point where you can bounce much easier, right? You’re repetitively trying something until the risk of falling is less, the potency is less.

00;20;17;17 – 00;20;51;26

Jon

Well, the same is true of trauma, pain of loss. Right. I think when your natural inclination is to pull away, you allow something to stay its size and danger level. And so, like I was even noticing because there are some pretty, you know, jarring, visible, audible scent related pieces to do orange death. And, you know, from moving higher and things like that that are like very clearly in my memory.

00;20;52;07 – 00;21;10;21

Jon

So it’s like, okay, each time this little flash of thought comes into my mind of, you know, those very visceral experiences, I have a choice. I can either choose to like, try and change my mind real quick, or I can choose to walk through the discomfort and pain of that experience and think, how could I have responded better?

00;21;10;21 – 00;21;36;23

Jon

Maybe, or just to face it head on detail for detail, and then after experiencing it saying, okay, that was terrible. And then I choose to remember or think about something positive after writing. Okay, I walked through it, deep breath, let it out, let’s move on. And what I’ve realized is when I made that decision to say, Yeah, that really sucked, and then to face it each time it flashes into my mind, instead of just trying to change my thought, it loses its potency.

00;21;36;23 – 00;21;38;29

Jon

It becomes less jarring.

00;21;39;07 – 00;21;58;18

Aaron

Yeah, because we’ve we’ve like given it like a team in our head. It’s like, is this a negative emotion or a positive emotions? It’s just an emotion. It’s like, don’t put it in that box. Like to think about this. It’s like, Oh, that’s negative. It’s like, No, it’s, it’s real. It’s like, think on it. Yeah. Like, does that affect you?

00;21;58;19 – 00;22;19;21

Aaron

What? What do you you know, what does what does that take you kind of thing. And it because as you say it’s you can’t ignoring it so it’s not like it’s like this big monster that because you ignore it it gets its feelings hurt and leaves your mind it like it lingers and it stays strong. It’s sometimes gets bigger over time, bigger than it needs to.

00;22;19;22 – 00;22;19;26

Aaron

What?

00;22;19;26 – 00;22;31;10

Jon

That which is unknown and ambiguous is frightening. Right? Right. And that you shared this idea a couple of times about how do you handle grief? You let it in, you let it last, you let a fade. And like.

00;22;31;26 – 00;22;36;15

Aaron

I said that I wonder, just like all knowledge, we still it right have.

00;22;36;17 – 00;22;57;04

Jon

A natural air and an original air. But but the premise is true. And I think it’s really what’s shocking is I think it’s been true for ever. Like I can’t think of a time when it would have been true, but we live in a time so countercultural, like with safe spaces, and let us dare not have a negative emotional response or you’re the enemy.

00;22;57;04 – 00;23;15;19

Jon

And like that is very damaging. And I am sorry for the people who hold that mindset right now. Right. And I hope that they can come to the place soon where they can begin to face the difficulties of life and gain some resilience because life would destroy you. Right. And it’s not my job to protect the naive. Right.

00;23;16;01 – 00;23;37;19

Jon

Who wouldn’t want to stay in that place? Right. So good luck. The thing that’s interesting is when you look at something that is terrible and you face it head on, right? That’s like letting it in piece, right? By choosing to say, Yep, that really sucked. And yeah, that was really jarring and that was not fun and that really hurts.

00;23;37;27 – 00;23;54;10

Jon

And then like evaluate it, right? If you have to write it out, if you have to bury it, whatever the case is, like face that thing head on and accept the emotions. When we were talking with Ken, can you. Clarke way back, he’s like, he was talking about how he was just learning that there’s no bad emotion. Right?

00;23;54;10 – 00;24;06;23

Jon

Right. It’s just emotion. Yeah. And that’s true. Like knowing how to handle something doesn’t make it less terrible. It just means you now have to choose not to handle it correctly to try and avoid. Yeah.

00;24;06;24 – 00;24;12;09

Aaron

Like if we feel guilty that we’re managing it as if we’re being irreverent to how terrible it is.

00;24;13;02 – 00;24;35;02

Jon

Well, you could correct. And that’s where I’ve honestly struggled a little bit with, like, everyone’s death, because like, beyond the obvious reasons, because I’ve gotten a lot of well-wishes and love and I appreciate every ounce of support. But like I have had to reject certain premises, like, yeah, this is this is super traumatic for you, This is super this or that or this or that.

00;24;35;13 – 00;24;56;00

Jon

It’s like, you know, I don’t own that. I don’t claim that over my life, like, yes, this is absolutely, like, heartbreaking, Right? We are heartbroken. We’re mourning the loss of something beautiful. But in there were traumatic aspects of it. Right. That frankly, for Lindsey sake, I won’t just describe on the show, which I typically would, because she was primarily hers.

00;24;56;12 – 00;25;13;28

Jon

And looking at those things that it’s like, yeah, so all these things are tied together, but it’s not going to it’s not going to damage me. Yeah, it just it was just a wound and there’ll be a scar, but it’s not going to change negatively. I’m not gonna have a limp from this, you know?

00;25;13;29 – 00;25;42;18

Aaron

Yeah. Like it’s like, is is this somebody in? I’m sure that’s not the intention of the person, but it could be is if someone saying, Well, it’s clear you’ll never walk again. You know, it’s like, well not necessarily, you know. Yeah. Like yeah, this is really bad. You’re right. Like, I don’t diminish that. But trauma will be in, in looking back on trauma won’t be known until you walk it out because you’re going to see in the future how bad it really was or whatever.

00;25;42;18 – 00;25;54;25

Aaron

But you’re trying to diminish that. It’s like, I do want to walk again. I don’t I don’t want to stop here and feel totally paralyzed by this. I don’t want to ignore it. I do know there’s some I do need to tend to this. I need to deal with it.

00;25;55;03 – 00;26;12;13

Jon

Yeah, because we don’t need more baggage and weight to carry around. Right. So it’s like, I know that this is not good, so we’re going to face it as a family head on now. We’re going to walk, we’re going to coach our children through healthier ways management. We’re going to walk through it as a couple. We’re going to walk through it individually.

00;26;12;13 – 00;26;29;08

Jon

Why? Because, like to your point, then you could find yourself and this is the problem when you experience these things and you ignore them or you run from them, then that’s where you have like all of this work to unravel not just the event, but the second, third and fourth, third effect. And here’s where I think the the real evil of it is.

00;26;29;08 – 00;26;59;25

Jon

I think there’s a real lie tied up in this. And that is you’re not if you undergo something bad and then you’re comforted into thinking you can escape it and just need comfort. Right now, I’m finding the find the trail here. The idea that you need comfort over strength to work through it healthily is a lie that robs your agency in ability and capability.

00;27;00;17 – 00;27;17;03

Jon

And that’s where you see these safe spaces stuff dropping up. We, you know, we collectively as a society have lied to people to say, you’re not strong enough, right? You won’t survive. You’re not capable of handling what life is going to throw at you.

00;27;17;03 – 00;27;24;24

Aaron

Let us help us or let us help you. Or why don’t you just let it go? Because it’s not it’s not something you can bear at all.

00;27;24;25 – 00;27;39;29

Jon

It’s such a lie. Yeah. And that’s that’s really what I don’t like about it all. It’s like, okay, no, that’s not true. You’re capable of not only handling it, but becoming a stronger, more capable, more compassionate human being. In spite of your difficulty, I.

00;27;40;12 – 00;28;05;06

Aaron

I have a little, little plaque in my garage since this is a do not pray that things will become easier, I pray that men will become stronger. Yeah. And as because it’s back to the potency thing, you know, the repetition decreases potency, not because the potency is any less than it was in the beginning. It’s because you become stronger now.

00;28;05;06 – 00;28;23;17

Jon

And that’s what’s been so weird about this week specifically, right? Walking through this as a family, it’s like, Oh my goodness, we’ve become so much stronger with the mindsets we have, like it’s an odd phenomenon, but walking through the loss, it’s like, Oh my goodness, Like, I would have to choose not to take the resilient approach here and be resilient.

00;28;23;17 – 00;28;42;28

Jon

I’m not saying I’m tough and I don’t feel it. That’s not it at all. What I’m saying is addressing it head on, grieving, working through it towards positive outcomes and continuing forward despite that loss. That’s resilience, right? So it’s like because I just don’t what the matches my diet there. There’s none of that in this.

00;28;44;21 – 00;29;06;16

Aaron

And that’s the three step we’re talking about. Yeah, you at it and really fully honestly this sucks and really get into that and this is why it sucks This is what I’ve lost. I’ll never have this again, man. I, I feel that. And then. And then. And then let it last. Were you really chewing on that? Some more?

00;29;06;16 – 00;29;25;21

Aaron

As long as you need to. As long as you should. But the let it fades really important. Because if we feel that something define us like, well I had trauma and therefore I will always be this way. Mm. That’s, that is the unhealthy thing we’re trying to avoid. Let’s, we do not want it to last longer than it needs to.

00;29;26;02 – 00;29;33;28

Aaron

We don’t want it and we don’t want it to stay in a way that really messes up how we think going forward.

00;29;33;28 – 00;30;01;22

Jon

Yeah, I’m comfortable saying encouraging people to let it end, face it head on. I’m not entirely certain on how to articulate the idea of let it last minute fade because I don’t want to encourage myself or anyone else to create a monster that they enjoy playing with. Right, right, right, right. I really want, you know, a month from now, this isn’t going to be on my mind every day, right?

00;30;02;02 – 00;30;04;03

Aaron

Because it will visit and that’s okay.

00;30;04;09 – 00;30;18;06

Jon

Do you know what it is? I think it’s I think it’s the last two. I think all three are coupled. You let it in, you get you take the full shock of it as much as you can. You keep doing that. And as you do that, it’s many cycles. It’s not one big cycle, but the mini cycles feed the big cycle.

00;30;18;14 – 00;30;34;29

Jon

If I get an idea right, like right now, boom, just pictured us dropping, like laying our one in the grave. Okay, That was a terrible part of the night. That’s actually a nice part of the night. But like, if that mine comes into my mind, I’m like, Yep, that’s exactly right. Okay, there’s nothing else here. It just jumped into my brain.

00;30;35;00 – 00;30;56;26

Jon

Okay? I just let it in, I let it last. I thought through it, and then guess what? I’m going to let it go. I’m going to let it fade. And I think if you have to do it each time and incrementally, it removes the strength and potency that could be negative over time and that’s the best way I’ve passed out to balance that, right, Because you don’t want to become like there’s also a level of them.

00;30;56;28 – 00;31;09;28

Aaron

Yeah, it’s not linear, sequential by any means. Is it? It’s sort of this parabolic going back to and getting a little further every time as you go up and down through those stages or pieces of it, you know.

00;31;10;03 – 00;31;30;11

Jon

Yeah. And you made the great comments like, you don’t want this to become part of your identity. Yeah. And I’m thinking like, there’s definitely a matter of proportionality to loss, right? Right. Like at the end of the day, Lindsey and I are talking about some of the things you were grateful for in what happened. Right. One, she I, I genuinely do not think she had a clue of what happened.

00;31;30;24 – 00;31;50;27

Jon

She was chasing target whatever, and lights out. I mean, it was a very large tow truck, thank goodness. So to shoot a total carcass, how big she was. So I mean in there going probably 60. So it was like there. I was grateful that I didn’t have to put her down. Right. Like because where I live, that I would have had to put her down here and that would’ve sucked and she’d have been suffering.

00;31;50;27 – 00;32;12;07

Jon

So of course she didn’t suffer. That’s good. Something else. It wasn’t one of her kids, right, Mike? We’re very strict. I do not think that the kids would ever be on that road. Right. We’ve been very severe and just talking about it like laying the foundation, but like, thank God it was in a kid that were bearing. Right.

00;32;12;13 – 00;32;29;10

Jon

Thank God it’s not my wife or friend, you know, So you start to go through these things. It’s like, wow. Like, it doesn’t diminish the pain, but it puts it in its proper perspective. And I think there’s a good distinction there. We need things to be in the proper perspective because it’s like you’ll be a lot better after a week with Arwyn than I would be with my wife.

00;32;29;26 – 00;32;42;00

Jon

And that’s fair and good. And like we need to have. I think it’s fair for us to have honest discussion so that we can properly, proportionately respond to things.

00;32;42;08 – 00;32;42;14

Aaron

Yeah.

00;32;43;24 – 00;33;01;04

Jon

Because if I think about even the safe room, right, it’s like you say a frickin word, like a one syllable overdrawn and like people will melt and said, okay, that is talking about proportionality. That is not something that should own that much investment from you. My yeah.

00;33;01;24 – 00;33;20;19

Aaron

That’s just taking stock. I think those are what we’re trying to get to as well. I mean because we’re we are talking about we’re talking about stewardship, the pain, the grief, the fear, the pain that can ensue during that. Yeah, that circumstance. But I don’t I don’t want anyone to suffer longer than they have, as if it’s a badge of honor.

00;33;20;22 – 00;33;42;07

Aaron

Mm hmm. Like to talk about a loss as if it defines you in. And people, I think they make it like a noble pursuit. Like, because I’ve never allowed it to be less painful than it needs to be. That means I honor it more than you. It’s like a I would question that. I would say, are you really grieving correctly?

00;33;42;16 – 00;34;07;20

Aaron

Because 911, for example, was horrible that day for everybody. Do I wake up every day feeling like that? No, not because I revere it any different. It’s because we went through a process together as as friends and family. Now, hopefully you did. If you did it at some point you do. If you lose anything and you didn’t deal with it, you will have to deal with it at some point.

00;34;07;20 – 00;34;24;26

Aaron

But if you did, it’s okay to be like, it doesn’t hurt me as much before now something might bring it back. That’s that cycle like our in. You’ll remember something, You’ll see it like for your for example, you may see a doctor or you might see something that now sparked that. That’s okay. Like, yeah, it’s like you’re not going backwards.

00;34;25;07 – 00;34;28;10

Aaron

You’re actually staying healthy. Yeah. When you feel those feelings.

00;34;28;17 – 00;34;34;00

Jon

And you bring up a great point because like if you get a cut and you have a scar, every time you see the scar, you know.

00;34;34;02 – 00;34;36;09

Aaron

It’s as if it happened right away. Yeah.

00;34;36;09 – 00;34;40;29

Jon

And then eventually you’ll see the scarring to me again. I don’t want to be forced with that knife again. Right.

00;34;41;10 – 00;34;42;22

Aaron

So, like, remember what that felt like.

00;34;43;12 – 00;35;10;10

Jon

And, you know, this is where this is a journey, right? We’re exploring something here because it’s not easily defined. But the the concept of what we’re talking about is complex, right? Because I just can’t help but free highlight proportionality of response to incident really matters, right? Like I losing our dog is not life shattering. World ending bitch sucks.

00;35;10;10 – 00;35;15;16

Jon

It’s heartbreaking. I’ve wept, my wife weeps, the kids have sobbed, You know, like we’ve.

00;35;15;16 – 00;35;18;13

Aaron

All lost family pets like. You know what? That feels. So it sucks.

00;35;18;13 – 00;35;41;18

Jon

But it’s not light shattering. It’s not trajectory shifting. It’s proportionately sucky and terrible. But it’s not the end of the world, right? Like, it’s not what would be an absolute atrocity that would take a lot more support and effort and concern would be losing one of my family, like one of the people in this house, you know.

00;35;41;24 – 00;35;56;03

Aaron

In what if what if you got what if you allowed this loss to make it so you’re going to stay isolated now and I’m never going to put myself out there again and they’re going to get the pet again and I’m going to it and maybe I’ll never get married again. I’ll never I’ll never have a good friend again like you.

00;35;56;04 – 00;36;03;22

Aaron

We’ve all had those losses. And then you make this declaration based on the trauma and then you never find health.

00;36;04;04 – 00;36;34;12

Jon

Right? We have you talking about we playfully called the a cocktail of despair. Yeah, right. When you have what was it? Grief, loss, pain, fear starts to sink in. And then because the fear from the grief, loss and pain, you get isolation and then division. Right. And that that’s the cocktail of despair. It’s interesting because even at the dogs, you know, it’s talking with a friend last night and he was talking about they were preparing for a wedding and the stress of the wedding was causing discomfort.

00;36;34;19 – 00;36;59;16

Jon

And the discomfort was causing division in the family. Who’s preparing for the wedding? Right. We’ve all seen that. And I was like, oh, well, relevant, unrelated situation of opportunity to change the script towards unity and stronger relationships is what we just walk through with our one, right When we separated from the neighbors and the gentleman who was kind enough to stop his truck and help kind of shield the roads, it’s a double blind hill.

00;36;59;16 – 00;37;21;04

Jon

It’s dangerous. 55 mile per hour speed limit sucks. Not a huge fan of it, but he he stops so they leave. And Lindsey and I come in the gate and, you know, it’s like kind of raw voices, voice more escalated and stuff. So I feel stung, so I retaliate and that’s okay. Wait, what are you. Oh, and then she falls out of the wheelbarrow.

00;37;21;04 – 00;37;52;17

Jon

That was not fun. So it’s like, okay. And she goes inside. I pick the dog back up, put it back in the wheelbarrow, second mover. I walk inside, we sit down and we have a conversation about, Hey, we have a choice right now. There’s a lot of emotion going on. We can either allow ourselves to isolate in our pain or we can right now make the statement and then move towards that statement to say that we’re going to choose to push towards each other and have this be something that we work together on, despite not knowing what that looks like to become closer.

00;37;52;17 – 00;38;30;04

Jon

Yeah, and we made that choice. And the entire night changed, right? Not like, oh, the clouds part and sunshine butterflies. But it went from adversarial. We’re both hurting, isolated and angry and therefore defensive to vulnerable with each other. And we started mourning and we started working through it together. And it changed the entire script. And it reminded me of like, my buddy’s observation with what he’s going through with his family was that they were his concern is that they’re taking the relationships of family for granted, that to always be there.

00;38;30;04 – 00;38;55;23

Jon

Therefore, you can become less intentional and lazy with your speech because you don’t think the person will go away. And he’s like, That was a lie. It’s so the encouragement and all of this is it’s not silly to call out the simple truths that you take for granted on a normal day. Yeah, in under normal circumstances I agree to reset perspective, Right.

00;38;56;03 – 00;39;23;03

Jon

Lindsey and I work through life as a team. Yeah, we needed to speak that into existence in a time that was jarring and out of what we were used to handling on a daily basis. And by reminding ourselves and then deciding to commit to that, it changed our trajectory for the night, for the next day, for today. It’s only it’s been so 48 hours, you know, but it changed the entire experience from something that was showing the vision in our house.

00;39;23;04 – 00;39;34;18

Jon

Right. Separating us, causing us to become agitated with each other to something of we don’t know what to frickin do. So we’re just going to grieve together and then move forward together who’s who’s powerful there?

00;39;34;20 – 00;39;51;23

Aaron

And you get all that. You get that gift because you guys are pressing. And as a family, I mean, because the other could have been true, like you could have been totally like cognitive dissonance. Like we never had a dog. Huh? What’s what’s that you said lose. Start over there, Dad. We don’t talk about that. Yeah, like, and we all have that.

00;39;52;01 – 00;40;00;20

Aaron

All of us have something like that in our life. I mean, we’re certainly being allegorical a bit here, and this is a little tongue in cheek like, do you have a grave that you just don’t look at anymore?

00;40;01;15 – 00;40;02;21

Jon

You have to get back on the horse.

00;40;02;21 – 00;40;06;02

Aaron

But did you even bury it in the first place? Is is is still out.

00;40;06;02 – 00;40;08;04

Jon

There just rotting it right in your mind?

00;40;08;25 – 00;40;18;21

Aaron

Yeah. Did you bury it in the first place? And if you did bury it, are you comfortable looking back at that painful thing? Yeah. And allowing the beauty to come out like this is what I learned from it.

00;40;19;01 – 00;40;35;01

Jon

Well, in on the burial, I do want to clarify. I think we’ve been clear in this conversation. Yeah, but the burying it doesn’t mean because you hear or just bury it. Like, go get out of sight and ignore it. No, no. We’re talking about the the intentional facing head on in intentional putting things in their proper place and release.

00;40;35;01 – 00;40;36;00

Jon

You did the work. Yeah.

00;40;36;01 – 00;40;51;22

Aaron

I mean, the. The burial is the work. Yeah. Like you need you do to make the bed to put this thing where it belongs. It’s a dead thing. Yeah, but it doesn’t mean it wasn’t meaningful. Doesn’t mean like it wasn’t a beautiful thing and something that you enjoyed. It was a gift that you were given. But I don’t.

00;40;51;28 – 00;40;54;26

Aaron

But you also don’t ignore that process that you went through.

00;40;55;04 – 00;41;11;00

Jon

Yeah. And and it’s fun because. Or it’s interesting because when you look at all that, it does change the perspective. And I’m losing where I was going with this. But the if you have something jump in your family.

00;41;11;00 – 00;41;27;27

Aaron

Well I’m. Is that your family? What I what I was noticing here is that because you’re family and you’re staying with you and Lindsey and then to your kids. And I think it’s important you started with your spouse, like, what are we feeling here? How are we doing? Because she may have have a different grief feeling than you did or different avenues.

00;41;27;27 – 00;41;44;16

Aaron

Her mind’s going, see, it’s like, let’s check each other. Then once we’re good and we’re gonna go to the kids and they’re going to have all of them are going to have different ways, are dealing with it, different ages, different personality types and then and then then the good will start coming out of it. The health will start coming out of it.

00;41;44;23 – 00;41;57;21

Jon

Yeah, Lindsey is much closer, so I think the grief is much stronger for her with it with this one. But you know, there’s also an there’s an appropriate time for things, right? We didn’t wake the kids up and tell them.

00;41;58;15 – 00;41;59;17

Aaron

Yeah, I thought that was why.

00;42;00;05 – 00;42;25;09

Jon

We didn’t tell them. First thing in the morning. We fed them breakfast and told them, Yeah, right. Because I know that I’m weaker. Like I take things more harshly when I’m tired than when I’m hungry. So we had the dogs outside, which is very typical for us. So there’s no reason, there’s no hiding anything. We fed them a good breakfast, We had a good morning and then it’s okay when you have a family talk and we don’t nibble on that sandwich, we just, um.

00;42;25;09 – 00;42;34;14

Jon

Now, last night, Orange jumped the fence, tracing something was hit by a tow truck and killed, and she’s buried in the backyard and we can go say goodbye and walk through this together.

00;42;34;14 – 00;42;37;29

Aaron

So you didn’t get, like, the puppets out and try to know, like.

00;42;38;07 – 00;42;39;21

Jon

I think that was close to verbatim.

00;42;39;25 – 00;42;43;00

Aaron

Yeah, it’s a straight lesson, but it is. Yeah. Boom.

00;42;43;09 – 00;42;53;09

Jon

And then I was silent because that’s kind of a bombshell and I let it kind of roll over the kids and we, you know, different responses from different personalities.

00;42;53;09 – 00;42;57;15

Aaron

And Coach, you didn’t insert a narrative over it. That’s good. Hey, what are you thinking on that?

00;42;57;16 – 00;43;13;16

Jon

Here it is. And then also we gave freedom, right? Because yeah, one of them started crying. One of them didn’t want to cry. So we’re holding back tears. So we just gave permission like, Hey, this is something worth crying over. If you have the inclination to, you’re free to write. It’s not like, Oh, about my knee and I’m crying.

00;43;14;04 – 00;43;20;03

Jon

And no, that’s where you can toughen up. Here’s where you can let it out. There’s a difference, right? It’s all proportional, but.

00;43;20;03 – 00;43;32;24

Aaron

A cool dad before, too. That’s cool. That’s like you didn’t say, you know, we don’t we don’t handle stuff like that. I mean, that’s unhealthy, right? It’s like, just suck it in and do this. It’s like, well, maybe that’s if you’re doing that. I just.

00;43;32;25 – 00;43;33;20

Jon

I’m interested.

00;43;33;20 – 00;43;33;29

Aaron

Yeah.

00;43;34;10 – 00;43;47;23

Jon

You know, I’m not interested. You know, like, some people would be like, Oh, you’re a B, you know, you’re soft or whatever. It’s like, Well, I don’t don’t mistake my willingness to encourage health in my children and my family for lack of willingness to bury you.

00;43;47;27 – 00;44;13;25

Aaron

I think it’s just not right. Well, they’re excellent the other way for me, I think and I think it more I think it’s a way more courageous thoughts to deal with the softer, whatever you want to call it. I don’t think that’s soft at all. I think that’s the brave thing. I think the weak man does not look at it honestly looks away and goes, That didn’t happen.

00;44;13;25 – 00;44;15;03

Aaron

We don’t talk about that sucking up.

00;44;15;06 – 00;44;36;12

Jon

Well, I do think they’re born from different perspectives. Right. Because if if life is that right, the people you love are dying around you. You don’t have the ability to put food on the table. All these things that come happen, you’re constantly responding. If you’re in a place of survival where you constantly survive, you don’t have the ability to begin to grieve or mourn or be healthy.

00;44;36;13 – 00;44;37;21

Aaron

This is the lecture you’re talking about.

00;44;37;21 – 00;45;03;00

Jon

This is the luxury. Yeah. So that mindset was born from hard times, right? Right. It’s not disproportional. It’s not well-suited for the luxury that we’re living in, but it’s fair. You know, like if you and I were leading our families, no matter right now, trying to survive, fleeing an enemy. Right, right, right. We don’t have a lot of time to unpack the emotional exploration towards health and peace for a family.

00;45;03;00 – 00;45;03;09

Jon

Right.

00;45;03;09 – 00;45;11;01

Aaron

If my brother in law takes a bullet while I’m in a firefight. Yeah. I don’t get to go down on one knee. I want to. That would be wonderful. But I can’t right now.

00;45;11;01 – 00;45;13;21

Jon

Yeah. And if you do, you die. He dies. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like.

00;45;13;23 – 00;45;14;03

Aaron

Yeah.

00;45;14;16 – 00;45;22;27

Jon

And that’s where it’s like, because I just realized this, you know, these thoughts came from fear places, but are they appropriate and responsible now.

00;45;22;27 – 00;45;23;24

Aaron

In that context?

00;45;24;09 – 00;45;56;20

Jon

And that’s where it’s like, you know, once again, this is in here a lesson. This is an adventure that’s like there’s the time and place thing. And then there’s also the fact that, like, if you have if you’ve lived years of survival, it’s going to be a difficult journey transitioning to thriving and to living. Well, you’re always have the muscle to go back to survival, but it’s why waste your your life truck acting as if you’re surviving when you’re thriving and in.

00;45;56;27 – 00;46;19;00

Jon

You know, I think that’s a good counterpoint and the only other piece of temperance is my father always says it’s not always. Sometimes it comes up. He’s like, don’t mistake my kindness for weakness. And there’s a school of thought. You know, Jordan Peterson speaks to it and he’s like, young men need to learn to to learn and become monsters.

00;46;19;00 – 00;46;40;18

Jon

Not so that they’re going and being destructive. And what he means by monsters. Like see the capability of your body, see how strong you are. You’re capable of doing good, bad, indifferent, learn your self. Because once you realize what you’re capable of, then you have a reason to discipline yourself and controlling. And it’s like Bruce Lee was asked why?

00;46;41;03 – 00;47;04;05

Jon

Because he he was a guard. He loved gardening. I think I’ve the right person. And he’s like, Why? Why do you study how to fight when you always talk about peace and love gardening? I think it’s pretty safe. I hope I’m not scaring. And if I am, please correct me so I can give the right person. But he’s like, It’s better to be a warrior in a garden at peace than a gardener in a war.

00;47;04;24 – 00;47;17;00

Jon

And that’s kind of the mentality we’re coming back to here. It’s like, Yeah, you have to be strong, you have to be tough, you have to be able to do bad, terrible, hard things. But that doesn’t mean you can’t go into the garden, enjoy it when that’s available to you.

00;47;17;05 – 00;47;26;25

Aaron

You’ve created a muscle that you may need in the future for something that’s even bigger. Who knows? Yeah, but because you’ve Preston, you become something new.

00;47;27;26 – 00;47;48;15

Jon

So to kind of summarize what I feel like and we’ll see if it’s all over the place when we listen to it, it feels all over the place in my mind. But to summarize it, we’re talking today about studying pain. For what? To stop the lie that if you’re hurting, if you’re grieving, if you feel alone, that that’s where you need to be, Right?

00;47;48;23 – 00;48;16;17

Jon

And to speak the truth, that you can seek out community and your pain and you can choose to face it and you can choose to begin to heal through it and become better from it. And that’s the truth that I believe in and that’s the opportunity I’m taking advantage of this week’s mishaps and loss to try and exemplify in our journey.