Episode 21 from The Grit Theory. 

***This conversation faces human sex trafficking head on, though it does not go explicit, listeners discretion is advised***

Today we sit down with the indomitable Steve Willis a photographer, videographer and creative who was on the film crew for the documentary “Nefarious Merchant of Souls” which faces head on the global issue of human sex trafficking. Nefarious was directed by Benjamin Nolot who founded Exodus Cry, an international non-profit that works to abolish slavery because every person should be free. 

Highlights include: 

–          Slavery exists today. 

–          Human sex trafficking is thriving.

–          World traveler, but not a tourist.

–          Buying Murder Tickets.

–          Facing your naivety.

–          Overcoming Fear.

–          Go to war for your daughters and sisters.  

To learn more about Steve Willis and his work you can check him out at: https://www.stevewillisphoto.com/

To learn more about Benjamin Nolot and his work through Exodus Cry, as well as to see how you can engage in the fight to end sex trafficking go to:https://exoduscry.com/

Did you find value in today’s conversation? SHARE IT! 

Also, check out Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be waymakers HERE.

Do you want to learn more? Check out:

The Book: Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be WayMakers.

The Podcast: “Be Relentless Podcast”

The Fuel: Sisu Stamina, Performance Evolved

Linktree: Here.

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Episode Transcript

00;00;01;20 – 00;00;16;27

Jon

Hey, guys, Just a heads up. Today’s conversation is gritty, it’s real, and we’re exploring the underbelly of humanity. Nefarious merchant of Souls is talking about human sex trafficking, modern day slavery here in the States and globally.

00;00;16;28 – 00;00;44;27

Aaron

We’re sitting down with one of the crewmen on the nefarious movie Film Project. Again, dealing with human trafficking, something that affects over 40 million forced prostitution victims. And then it has a global economy of 99 billion plus. This is certainly a pervasive, gigantic subject today. We have a a discussion today I think is going to be potentially slightly uncomfortable.

00;00;44;27 – 00;01;08;26

Aaron

It’s certainly we’re going to get into some of the dark stuff of humanity. But at the same time, I hope we’re going to land with what is. What good is coming of that? And so, of course, on the Great Three, we’re about facing the difficulties. We’re about looking at things that are uncomfortable. We’ve called it before, looking in the mirror, and we’re looking in the mirror of humanity today where there’s some things in the mirror that are pretty stinking ugly.

00;01;09;18 – 00;01;30;07

Aaron

The great thing is that we don’t have to stay there and there’s some things that we can do to combat that. So we’ve invited Steve Lewis, who has sat front row to some of some pretty, pretty crazy things. But we’re more here to talk about a film project called Nefarious that that Steve has been a part of. So, Steve, welcome.

00;01;30;08 – 00;01;30;17

Aaron

Glad you’re.

00;01;30;17 – 00;01;32;04

Steve

Here. Thank you. Yeah.

00;01;32;18 – 00;01;55;29

Aaron

So nefarious is a full name is Merchant of Souls, which is a very provocative title merchant of To Sell Souls. And we’re getting into the sex trafficking conversation here. What’s going on in the world? And and I got I got a minute before I saw this film. I thought sex trafficking is something that happens far away in countries that, you know, I’ve never heard of or can’t pronounce.

00;01;55;29 – 00;02;14;17

Aaron

And and it’s a minority thing. It’s you know, it’s not happening very much. But as I watched the show, I was I was just shocked by the statistics and how pervasive this industry has been. Before we get into the film, kind of tell me what your background is and maybe how you kind of got involved with this.

00;02;16;00 – 00;03;02;04

Steve

Okay. I’ve been in the creative media industry for since I finished school back in Cincinnati. I’ve been a video camera guy. I was a video editor for a long time, then got into graphic design. And then with the advent of camera gear like photography gear making the switch to Pro-Level gear, I stumbled into photography as a career. The the the the canon five DS also functioned as video cameras, and it kind of opened up all kinds of opportunity for me creatively as a result.

00;03;02;04 – 00;03;16;04

Steve

And because of that and the reputation that I had in Kansas City as a photographer, I got invited to be a part of this, the film crew for Nefarious Merchant of Souls.

00;03;17;01 – 00;03;25;00

Aaron

And this is about probably 12 years ago or so or I’m not sure about about about that. So and it’s been out there.

00;03;25;13 – 00;03;26;12

Steve

Yeah yeah.

00;03;26;13 – 00;03;27;29

Jon

And and a quick thing on.

00;03;27;29 – 00;03;28;25

Steve

The and.

00;03;28;29 – 00;03;29;14

Jon

I just want.

00;03;29;14 – 00;03;29;19

Steve

To.

00;03;30;17 – 00;03;40;23

Jon

Shamelessly plug your photography I’ve seen the pictures you’ve done of Aaron and how you make him look good. Is it honestly just miraculous because that’s such an uphill fight. How many lenses did you.

00;03;40;23 – 00;03;42;12

Steve

Work when.

00;03;42;12 – 00;03;43;11

Jon

You had to take pictures of him?

00;03;43;19 – 00;03;47;29

Steve

Well, I appreciate the kind words, but Aaron wasn’t that bad.

00;03;48;05 – 00;03;51;13

Jon

Okay, so no lenses broken. That’s a he’s.

00;03;51;13 – 00;03;56;09

Aaron

A great leader. Yeah, he he he very patiently said, Aaron, stop it and stop it.

00;03;57;06 – 00;04;25;15

Jon

So the good news is, though, both through the movie and through pictures I’ve seen you do you do amazing work? So thanks for sharing that and really glad you’re here. I think what I’m excited about with this conversation and how we’ve treated up in the Far East Merchant of Souls and what that’s going to cause us to focus on is there’s a very dangerous naivete in our culture that’s based on the comfort and the security and the abundance that we have that will be challenged today.

00;04;25;15 – 00;04;38;01

Jon

Like if you believe that people are naturally pre prepared, like predisposed, predisposed. Thank you so much. It’s hard to be dumb, too good, right? To be predisposed to be good.

00;04;40;02 – 00;05;10;19

Jon

That’s false. And if you in the proof is in the pudding, all you have to do is open your eyes and travel the world and you’ll see that what is miraculous is that we’re capable of good, but we’re predisposed to pretty terrible things. And I’ve been familiar with that darkness for a long time. And the movie Nefarious Merchant of Souls, I thought beautifully captured the genuine rawness of some of the worst of what we do.

00;05;11;03 – 00;05;16;02

Jon

You know, the fact that slavery is still alive and well in our country.

00;05;16;12 – 00;05;16;22

Steve

Mm hmm.

00;05;17;16 – 00;05;43;16

Jon

Not to mention the rest of the world right under our noses is something that if it doesn’t send shivers down your spine and predispose your mind to start looking for ways to act, that’s scary to me. It ought to. It ought to. So that’s kind of my take from the start. I hope this is either a wake up call or a reminder, because there’s many who listen to this, who I know know how the world works in.

00;05;43;16 – 00;05;58;04

Jon

For me, that’s what it was. It was a it was another thing. It was kind of like going for a run in a blizzard. Right. Don’t get soft. Don’t let your mind weaken. Remember what is right next to you and be a force for good against it. So that that’s kind of where I’m coming in swinging on this one.

00;05;58;04 – 00;05;58;22

Steve

Yeah. Yep.

00;05;59;22 – 00;06;26;23

Aaron

The topic is is extremely important. We’re we’re not going to be localized in this conversation. This is a global pandemic really, of slavery that’s happening. I remember amnesty for one time a we were very casually sitting at a table with a bunch of guys and we’re kind of asking about, Hey, what other countries have you been in? You know, typically, you know, most Americans are going to say a few other countries outside and then we get to you.

00;06;27;08 – 00;06;39;27

Aaron

And you just kept talking about so many countries and so many cities. You’ve been largely as a part of this project, I think. Or is it or other are you just that traveled even off the place?

00;06;40;07 – 00;07;22;08

Steve

No, it’s it’s connected to my career in photography. I never thought photography would open up the doors it has and provided world travel. But I’ve been to 23 countries now pretty extensively throughout the Middle East, being a part of film projects, even outside of nefarious with nefarious itself. I went to 12 different countries Northern Europe, Southeast Asia, a lot of travel domestically and then down south where we were in Costa Rica, you know, at the start, you know, I’d share that with others that I traveled a lot.

00;07;22;20 – 00;07;49;27

Steve

And it kind of sounds glamorous, but I you know, my introduction to international travel was mostly just seeing the the sexual underbelly of the nations and and just rampant perversion. And I was I was not a tourist. I was working and we were just hearing horror stories.

00;07;50;06 – 00;08;12;05

Aaron

It’s it was like the exact opposite of what tourism is like. Tourism was like, Show me the best you got. You go like, we’re going to the worst. These cities have to provide. You know, you’re kind of looking at it. And that’s kind of my questions. Why, you know, why why did this project come to be? Why would somebody you know, that’s a really hard, long stare and a very difficult subject.

00;08;12;05 – 00;08;28;01

Aaron

And and you and I have talked off air about how you have it. Like it makes you lose your taste for anything sexual at all because of how it how absolutely evil it is to look and stare at. That’s a hard journey to walk down.

00;08;29;26 – 00;09;09;27

Steve

Well, it is. And one of the one of the side effects of even being a part of the film that I wasn’t expecting is that, you know, I actually after after coming back home from from our time in Northern Europe, I actually saw my my own sex drive kind of go down. You know, I I’m grateful for a healthy marriage, marriage and sexual activity within a healthy marriage.

00;09;09;27 – 00;09;59;10

Steve

But just the stories that we hear were sex is being brought so low and just dragged through the mud, it just it almost made it feel dirty. And, you know, you kind of had to get back to a place where like, oh, yeah, this is sex as a gift. It’s it’s beautiful. It’s it’s intimacy with my wife. But I don’t know that your your drive for that was kind of pushed down and weighted from again just stories and in sitting before just real young women you know we’re in we were in Moldova which is a country it’s just kind of a fallout of the old Soviet Union.

00;09;59;10 – 00;10;26;15

Steve

And we’re interviewing a teenage girl and like like so many of the stories that these girls, they’re promised work in a in a foreign country. And then they just get their they’re in there. They become sexual slaves in this this young girl just wanted to better her life and find work. And just the most unimaginable things have happened to her.

00;10;26;15 – 00;10;38;29

Steve

And we’re interviewing her and she just she has herpes all over her face, like just coming out from around her lips and around her cheeks and and chin was just herpes.

00;10;41;08 – 00;10;56;18

Aaron

Because she she’d been treated like chattel. Day in, day out. You know, it’s I mean, this is this is it’s difficult to say, but, I mean, dozens and dozens of times, maybe potentially per day, She’s been she’s like an animal to these men.

00;10;57;06 – 00;10;59;23

Steve

Correct?

00;10;59;23 – 00;11;34;06

Jon

Yeah. The it’s interesting, in case we weren’t clear enough to start right now, phrase merchant souls is about human modern day slavery, you know, specifically with sex trafficking. Right. And it’s not racist. It’s it’s it’s not race focused. Right? It’s focused on the disadvantage that can be taken advantage of and put into these situations. And essentially what slavery is, is dehumanization of someone right to the to the place that they’re utilized as property rights.

00;11;34;06 – 00;12;03;08

Jon

That’s your comment on chattel. And in the fact that that is happening today in with some of the things that we concern ourselves with as a country instead is wild to me. But you know, the thing that I really hear with that girl you’re talking about is like, here you go. Here’s someone who wants to better themselves and they’ve been ruined in many ways physically by the herpes, right?

00;12;03;09 – 00;12;24;28

Jon

That cover their entire face. They have that stigma that they can’t even walk into a place without it being appearance like a scarlet letter on their forehead. Regardless of if they’re out of the environment or not. They escape. And like what? What specifically in that instance, because you saw tons of girls who all underwent the same thing, tons of children who underwent the same thing.

00;12;25;08 – 00;12;27;12

Jon

What makes her stand out in your mind.

00;12;27;22 – 00;12;28;10

Steve

More.

00;12;29;16 – 00;12;33;24

Jon

Than or like what makes her come up now? Right. With everything you’ve seen.

00;12;39;12 – 00;13;01;27

Steve

Her to say? Maybe because it was maybe because it was a physical manifestation, you know, on her. Not everybody had, you know, visual evidence of of their story on upon them. So yeah, yeah.

00;13;02;28 – 00;13;14;28

Aaron

So the project came together. Why, why was it that they decided this is something that needed to be said, need to be filmed and brought attention to?

00;13;14;28 – 00;13;46;01

Steve

So a gentleman named Benji Nolo is really the backbone behind this film. Benji Nolo. He heads up Exodus Crime, which is a ministry that was behind making the film. And and they’ve they’ve gone on to create other films and they’re going to have another film come out as well, which I think in many ways is more important than the nefarious film.

00;13;47;07 – 00;14;03;05

Steve

The next film that that they’ll release is actually taking on just the pornography industry. Pornography really is what fuels human trafficking.

00;14;03;05 – 00;14;07;14

Aaron

That’s interesting statements up there for a second. What does that how so? What’s the relationship.

00;14;15;23 – 00;14;20;05

Steve

And how do we put that into.

00;14;21;04 – 00;14;22;09

Jon

You? Can you say it straight?

00;14;22;09 – 00;14;44;29

Aaron

Yeah. You know, let’s be delicate. Okay. Is that as I understand it, do you think of this as I understand it, there’s there’s a large portion more than we want to admit that the porn industry has used slavery as part of their. It’s part of the industry’s workers. Really? I’ve heard that. And I can corroborate that.

00;14;44;29 – 00;15;27;20

Steve

But, you know, at at its core, like Benji would put it this way, Benji uses this phrase all the time, but it’s it’s the sexualization and objectification of women and just reducing women to objects. And they’re kind of getting, you know, stripped of their humanity and it’s what pornography, you know, does best. It’s it’s such an easy thing for everybody to keep secret and do in the dark.

00;15;27;20 – 00;15;52;18

Steve

But it’s a it’s just a horrible, horrible problem. But it’s it’s it’s what’s it’s where most men that are purchasing sex, it’s their purchasing has their their journey started with porn. Usually porn is the gateway. It’s the launching pad. Yeah. Okay.

00;15;53;14 – 00;16;09;18

Jon

So I remember from Nefarious, I think it was the detective I forget the country she said that kind of pull on that thread. She made a comment that when men are buying sex, they’re just they’re not having sex. They’re just masturbating with women’s bodies.

00;16;10;28 – 00;16;52;01

Steve

That was a political leader in Sweden. You know, we were in we were in Sweden because of some of the stance that the Swedes have taken towards prostitution. So we went there to to speak with some of their political leaders because their Sweden has really embraced that. The idea, the concept that if a woman has gotten to the point where she is selling her body, she should not be the one that is criminalized.

00;16;52;01 – 00;17;26;20

Steve

The people that should be criminalized are the men that is taking advantage of her vulnerable state in the states. You know, it’s the opposite. We’ve we’ve criminalized, you know, you and usually prostitutes will get arrested where it’s illegal. But it’s the prostitutes that need to be helped and counseled and they need to be healed. And so Sweden is actually criminalizing the men that are taking advantage of women in a vulnerable state.

00;17;27;19 – 00;17;28;26

Steve

Hmm. Wow.

00;17;29;17 – 00;17;39;16

Aaron

There’s a there’s a real shot even across Western civilization, what we do, who the real criminals are and who’s responsible for this?

00;17;39;21 – 00;18;01;29

Jon

Well, I think it’s really a shot across the world. Yeah, even more so. Right, Because this is happening everywhere, Right? And it’s just either ignored or it’s criminalized in some faction. If you’re attacking the the victims and not the culprits. Right. Right. It sounds like Sweden’s one of the only places that does that. They attack the culprits. They attack the men, the pimps, the the johns, all of them.

00;18;02;09 – 00;18;25;15

Steve

Yeah. So prostitution is virtually not nonexistent in Sweden. I imagine there’s you know, there’s underground elements of it. But most most of the men that are, you know, in bondage to that, they have to go across across borders to to do it. Yeah.

00;18;27;04 – 00;18;27;25

Aaron

Yeah, go ahead.

00;18;28;14 – 00;18;45;00

Jon

Yeah. I was going to say, like, one of the things that like looking at Thailand, right, Because I think most people have heard of like the red light district in Amsterdam and places like that where you can just walk down and literally window shop for women to go in and paint, you know, do that type of stuff, have sex with them or whatever.

00;18;45;00 – 00;19;01;24

Jon

And there’s panic buttons because it’s not safe. You know, it’s girls are getting killed in addition to that. And you can just see when they’re interviewing the guy who’s owned that business for like 20 years, just they’re bald faced lies that he’s just saying as he’s smiling through his teeth like, oh, yeah, it’s safe. Oh, yeah, I care about them.

00;19;01;24 – 00;19;11;16

Jon

Oh, yeah, I do these things. It’s like when you can see he’s telling himself those lies. And because it’s like, how do you stomach it into That’s just what it is. But then like, there it’s mostly.

00;19;12;15 – 00;19;13;02

Steve

More.

00;19;13;18 – 00;19;44;14

Jon

More grown, right? They’re the, the, the women are a little bit older than, say, in Thailand where like it’s common practice for like four or five, six, seven year olds to be so that one one of the things that really struck me just especially now revisiting this topic, I was like a father was like seeing in Thailand, the part where they’re talking about all those those men who could just wake up and drink beer and smoke cigarets all day and go back to sleep.

00;19;44;14 – 00;20;03;28

Jon

It’s like, Well, how could they afford that life? It’s because they were they were selling their daughters locally in the same town to grown men, to pedophiles and to all these types of things. And then they’d come back home each night, and because they were selling them, they’re able to just do nothing. And they chose to do nothing.

00;20;03;28 – 00;20;26;18

Jon

Despite having the capability to work. And and to me, it’s just like I, I have a bring the sword mentality to those types of things. You know, some people have the heart to like rescue the children. I have the heart to let’s let’s eliminate some of those men. And that’s just from my background. I’m not trying to be machismo or nothing, you know, 100% like I’m being authentic.

00;20;26;19 – 00;20;46;25

Jon

SACK Right. I’m like, there’s nothing there’s no reason you should draw breath if that’s how you’re going to treat your children. But like looking at that, I just want to peel back the curtain a little bit more on the true ugliness of this, because it’s like, okay, you know, I can just hear some individual, for lack of better words at the moment.

00;20;47;02 – 00;20;49;00

Steve

So I’m actually going to back you up.

00;20;49;06 – 00;20;51;25

Jon

Okay. Please.

00;20;51;25 – 00;21;46;05

Steve

So I totally understand that that’s a it’s a real typical and natural response for us alpha males, right, to want to fight and bring justice to the innocent, you know, and to to bring the sword. But I’m not I’m not sure that’s the healthiest response for men because just there’s another side of that. It’s it’s although it’s easy to see, you know, the women and the boys that are enslaved that there’s there’s there’s an invisible enslavement that’s happening in the hearts of men and and and in another way, men just need to be set free themselves.

00;21;47;27 – 00;22;21;13

Steve

And while I was on my journey doing this film, I had a really powerful dream that kind of brought light on that. And in this in this dream, I’m outside of an apartment complex and there’s a film crew there. And it was in, and I understood in the dream that it was like the America’s Most Wanted television show and that they were going to record this this bust.

00;22;21;22 – 00;22;51;16

Steve

And in the dream, upstairs was an adult male. And and he was with a very young a young girl that he had just hired for his pleasure, essentially like a prostitute suit. And I heard the host of the show, you know, talking about how they were getting ready to bust this guy. Little does our John upstairs know that that this girl upstairs is an undercover agent and she’s only ten years old.

00;22;51;16 – 00;23;16;12

Steve

And so I go in and he begins to kind of massage the girl the john does. And and that was enough for them to kind of move in and do a bust. And so in the dream, I remember coming down on this guy and I just in the dream, I just wanted to hurt him. I wanted to bring justice.

00;23;16;12 – 00;23;40;27

Steve

And I and I in the dream actually had a bat. And I am just laying into this guy. I’m making sure his his knees are getting hurt. He’s on the ground. He’s like he’s like, curled up and I’m making sure that I’m hitting his head. I’m damaging ribs. I’m just it’s in the dream. It kind of felt like, oh, this was satisfying to make this guy pay, right?

00;23;42;22 – 00;24;10;21

Steve

And then and then, you know, I stopped doing that and he rolls over to the side and and he’s just weeping and he’s weeping. And this understanding came to me in the dream that he was just so full of shame and confusion. He didn’t understand then how it got to this point in his life. And he felt like he deserved every blow that I was giving him.

00;24;11;25 – 00;24;36;11

Steve

And I think he was relieved that he got caught. And in the dream, I just understood that, you know, his journey started probably looking at lingerie. And then it got a little bit darker and then it got a little bit darker. And now he was trying to have sex with kids and he wanted to get free. But there was so much shame and guilt and you just feel so dirty.

00;24;36;11 – 00;25;01;16

Steve

How do you confess this to other people to get free from it? But in the dream he was actually relieved. Yeah. That. That the bust came. Yeah. And so he was just on this strange, dark path. And. And so, you know, the men are in bondage, too, and it’s and it’s so easy to overlook it because we can’t see their chains.

00;25;02;20 – 00;25;24;15

Steve

But they’re, but they’re real and men need help. And as much as we can do to create a movement to help free the obvious bondage that we that we see with women and children, there needs to be a movement to get men free, too.

00;25;25;20 – 00;25;45;04

Aaron

Yeah. So you’re you’re talking about more of the root of the cause, like where this is all coming from, not just the actions that are coming out. And so it’s a lot of what we talk about is that and this is why we’re talking about these hard subjects. It’s not unlike anything else that we have to look at, like, hey, these are terrible things that are happening in my mind right now.

00;25;45;04 – 00;26;10;04

Aaron

I need to look at them. Humanity is no different. They have things that they have. We look at them. Why? Because we want to deal with it. We want to get it out because I don’t I don’t want to die. I don’t want people to be I don’t want people to be killed. At the same time, that just aside and I think, John, to your point, the the immediate reaction is like it needs to stop right now no matter what.

00;26;10;04 – 00;26;20;14

Aaron

This can’t be repeated ever again. And but then it’s also like juxtaposed with how do we how do we heal the problem? Because otherwise we’re just chasing people all the time.

00;26;20;14 – 00;26;28;19

Jon

I really love that you backed me up like that. I love it when people do that, so I’m just grateful for that chronologically.

00;26;28;19 – 00;26;30;21

Aaron

You back, you backed up. Oh, you backed something.

00;26;30;21 – 00;26;52;23

Jon

You disagreed. Right. With the point I was going to and I loved that a lot. I don’t have much to comment on it because I think that what you said is very valuable and I don’t disagree with it. The only thing I would say, because hearing how you heard what I was saying for when I say when I said that, it’s very unemotional, that the bringing of the sword, there’s no emotion, there’s no desire to hurt.

00;26;53;10 – 00;27;16;16

Jon

I’m not going to take you know, I want to take it in that solution. There’s no injury. It’s execution, it’s elimination. It’s not punishment and adjustment. It’s elimination. And and that is from you know, I’ve been thinking about that a lot, and I don’t know how to manifest. Right. But when you have problems, like it doesn’t help to go in and eliminate the john.

00;27;17;12 – 00;27;48;22

Jon

It doesn’t help to go in. You have to find the the deeper root. You have to find the head right of the issues for it to be impactful. So it’s actually that the only thing I’d comment to what I saying, just to provide clarity for the context of our conversation is when I say when I said that the place I’m coming from it, after having thought about these types of issues for a long time and revisiting them over the last week is not an emotional response to inflict pain.

00;27;50;01 – 00;27;55;09

Jon

It’s a clinical surgical removing of tumors and.

00;27;57;00 – 00;27;57;29

Steve

Which which.

00;27;58;12 – 00;28;27;17

Jon

I think is very well counterbalanced and more actionable to be corrected in the light of what you were saying. Right. And I think it actually further adds value to what you said because if you look at it from the equation of, okay, here’s a problem, let’s clinically remove it. And you’re like, yes, that’s fair. It’s also fair to want to hurt them because you’re angry and sickened and that’s where you know what you came in with.

00;28;27;23 – 00;28;49;16

Jon

And it’s like, but here’s the root of the problem. Everyone here is hurting and broken in some way. And and we can do things to help head that off. And it’s like that’s where there’s real power and that’s what I want to honor in and bring back to the point right, of yeah, I think that makes sense. How can we help prevent that, Right?

00;28;50;04 – 00;29;10;27

Jon

How can we help prevent that journey down to the point where you have this person who’s weeping because they’re excited they got caught in your dream of becoming paying to be a pedophile? You know, how can you head that off? And I think that’s a much more actionable for many more people, a movement that could be started and actually done.

00;29;10;28 – 00;29;37;00

Jon

I love the quote that you guys did with Wilberforce at the end where it said, we don’t need casual observers, we need incurable fanatics. And then at the end, the the spot that hit me the hardest saying goes to this directly, or at least in my mind it does. I hope it does when it comes out is you can you can choose to look away, but you can never say you did not see.

00;29;38;06 – 00;30;03;12

Jon

And that’s a loose quote. I didn’t hit it perfectly. But that to me, I love it because even listening to this conversation, if you listen to this conversation, it’s news to you that this sort of stuff is happening. You can choose to ignore it and bury it, but you can never say you weren’t informed. And that’s why I love that you stopped me and corrected in that we’re able to kind of delve into what are the responses to this that can be taken, right?

00;30;03;21 – 00;30;24;20

Jon

Because I’m not in the position to do like at the moment, I’m not in the position at this exact second to eliminate anything tacked emotionally on anything. If that was the response. There are things that I can do to combat it. Along the lines of what you’re saying. You mentioned Exodus Cry. You mentioned that these things are creating movements, right?

00;30;25;05 – 00;30;28;24

Jon

This this this thing’s not an entertainment film, right? It’s a.

00;30;28;24 – 00;31;10;22

Steve

Tool. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. As Benji, the producer, director, the film just did an amazing job, but he was Benji was really stirred by a book called The Natasha’s. And then he began to kind of dive in and look at other documentaries that were out there, and they were mostly kind of poorly done, and they were mostly kind of just voyeuristic in nature and weren’t working or counter-productive, kind of wasn’t really accomplishing anything.

00;31;12;09 – 00;31;22;25

Steve

And so he was just greatly convicted and said, Well, I’m going to make a documentary. And Benji had never made a film before, and he gathered this kind of ragtag it’s those.

00;31;22;25 – 00;31;25;01

Aaron

Are kind of people. John Yeah, just go for it.

00;31;25;01 – 00;31;53;07

Steve

So he gathered a ragtag team of guys and took them around the world with just a little bit of equipment and and I what Benji accomplished is amazing, having this been his very first film, because I think it’s probably the best documentary out there on the subject and that ends with some hope but that back to you saying about it being a tool.

00;31;53;07 – 00;32;37;10

Steve

Benji and his Exodus Cry team have been really deliberate in bringing this film before Congressmen and senators and governments in other nations trying to to to bring awareness so that nations will change their laws and that nations will make it harder for, you know, criminals to succeed in this. There’s there’s a lie out there that Amsterdam bought into and and it was this that, you know, the sex industry is just going to happen anyways.

00;32;37;26 – 00;33;13;25

Steve

Prostitution is not going away. We should just let’s make it safe and let’s just legalize sex in our country. And they opened up the red light district in Amsterdam. But it’s not really an ethical business. And what happened when Amsterdam opened up the red light District District, they basically rolled out a red carpet for organized crime because the only people that are wanting to really profit on this are unethical, nasty gangsters.

00;33;14;21 – 00;33;45;11

Steve

And so when they did that, you know, not only the you know, that those criminal businessmen didn’t just bring, you know, the sex industry to that city, but then along with it came drugs and everything else that that those type of businessmen just bring along with them. Right. And so it just kind of it just opened up a whole slew of other problems for Amsterdam and Amsterdam’s kind of they’re kind of learning.

00;33;45;11 – 00;34;08;13

Steve

They’re trying their they’re slowly changing and they’re shutting down more and more of the windows there. But Amsterdam was actually my introduction. It was the first country we went to when when Benji approached me, he he said, you know, I want you on this film crew. You’re going to do photography, you know, in video for us. We leave for Amsterdam in two weeks.

00;34;08;13 – 00;34;31;01

Steve

Do you want to go? And I was like, Well, I’m in. Let me check with my wife for sure. I’m in. I’m And so, you know, my first introduction to International travel was staying in the red light district for ten days. And, you know, we all had read the book The Natasha’s, and we’re just kind of mortified by the reality.

00;34;31;01 – 00;35;05;19

Steve

But then we’re in the red light district and just everywhere is just, well, women and windows, transvestites and windows, windows selling dildos, live sex acts where you could sit in the theater and and see a couple have sex on a stage. It was kind of over whelming. And to just stay there. And so we we arrived jet lagged.

00;35;05;27 – 00;35;20;21

Steve

Right. And it’s just it’s just tense circumstances that we are in just like right away. And so that’s how I got baptized into the film. Well.

00;35;21;08 – 00;35;43;12

Aaron

Well, can I thank you for just one second? Because that to me, like I know you kind of rushed through that, you know, then Jim invited you to this crazy journey. But like, what mentally are you like, how how do you prepare yourself? How do you even make that decision? Because I can imagine going to my wife and saying, hey, honey, I’m going to go to some of the ugliest, grossest, you know, most profane places in the world.

00;35;43;24 – 00;35;51;01

Aaron

You know, what do you think about that? You know, how did that go down and what ultimately allowed you to say, this is something I need to do?

00;35;51;12 – 00;36;34;26

Steve

Honestly, I was I was kind of naive and I was just excited to do. Yeah, world travel right. And, you know, so at first I was excited and it was you know, it was it was it was life changing in so many ways. Yeah. But then you get there and then, you know, the stories unfold and I don’t know, you know, maybe we just kind of, you know, you kind of put up a little bit of a wall inside your own inner man just to kind of protect yourself.

00;36;35;29 – 00;36;47;04

Steve

We have teams of people praying for us while we were making the film. I think that was incredibly helpful. I don’t think I it would have been hard to do it without that.

00;36;47;20 – 00;37;16;01

Aaron

Well, it’s rare that we really get the entire like syllabus is what’s going to happen. And we never do really for big mission. It’s, you know, and and to be totally honest, like you probably would have run away screaming had you, you know, somebody gave you the finer points of what you were going to have to endure. You know, you almost were growing along the way as you needed to being in it because you didn’t know what was what you were going to expect or what you were going to see, where you were or how you going to react to certain things.

00;37;16;17 – 00;37;23;14

Aaron

I mean, I it’s it’s a tough walk. And you say that naivete was challenged.

00;37;24;01 – 00;37;54;16

Steve

Yeah. You know, another another kind of side effect for me was just fear. I have a boy and three girls and after making the film, like, I just I just watched my daughters like a hawk and it just like you didn’t even want them to, like, leave your front yard because you were just so scared of one of your daughters being snatched up.

00;37;54;16 – 00;38;11;18

Steve

Right. Like, you know, taking taking my girls to to a mall or something. And if there was an old man on a bench, I’m like, Dude, are you pervert? Are you here right now, girl? And Brad’s like, No, I can’t. I can’t live under fear.

00;38;11;19 – 00;38;12;19

Aaron

Kind of ruins your mind.

00;38;12;19 – 00;38;42;02

Steve

Yeah. You know, and So it was, it was interesting having to kind of navigate and kind of pray through that so that I didn’t, like, wasn’t overbearing, overprotective. Sure. Over shelter. You know, my girls, they. They need to live and experience life. But but that was a that was kind of a side effect of the of the journey was kind of coming home with just a real fear and suspicion of Right.

00;38;42;02 – 00;38;43;05

Steve

Of men.

00;38;43;05 – 00;38;59;29

Jon

Right. Looking at one little, I guess, dark humor, I guess, but a really poor way to deliver this. This film to your wife. Say, babe, I’m going to go spend ten days in the red light district in Amsterdam. Right. You get with that like that without any context.

00;38;59;29 – 00;39;01;11

Steve

Would be a little bit troublesome.

00;39;01;23 – 00;39;02;22

Aaron

So tell me more.

00;39;02;22 – 00;39;04;28

Jon

Yeah, like I feel like I’m missing a critical point.

00;39;05;11 – 00;39;05;21

Steve

Um.

00;39;06;07 – 00;39;16;26

Jon

But the what’s interesting on the naivete piece, like, I love honesty of like, yeah, I was excited to travel the world with this, you know, and there’s no.

00;39;18;15 – 00;39;18;19

Steve

Like.

00;39;18;21 – 00;39;47;25

Jon

I think this is, this is true for most of the the harder darker sides of humanity right like whether it be combat or, or dealing with slavery, sex trafficking, extraordinary abuse, a lot of these things that are not good, the depravity of our species. Right. There’s no true preparation. It’s you can you have to choose to act. And once you’re in the situation, you have to choose to do the best you can.

00;39;47;26 – 00;40;19;14

Jon

And then once you’re out, you have to resolve what those effects are. And there’s no way to prepare yourself for seeing that stuff. Genuinely. There’s going to have to be some sort of walking through that afterwards. And how are you going to reconcile how you were with who you are and how that’s going to affect the future? That’s at least been my experience and that’s kind of what I hear and what you’re in, what you’re saying.

00;40;19;14 – 00;40;43;10

Aaron

I’m curious. I’m curious like even ask like I’m thinking and maybe we’ve heard this from like those soldiers and things like how do you detox when you’re going through like that, that would be a really, really crazy thing. And it’s a noble pursuit. Like what you did was, was fantastic. And what would the mission of the film and what how much how much how much attention they gave to the subject.

00;40;43;19 – 00;41;02;28

Aaron

But boy, it was born out of, you know, a lot of ugly having to look at this stuff and produce these things. And then the team that put this together and then we you guys all got to come home. The soldier has to come back home to their family, having seen this, you know, what did you what do you do mentally kind of, you know, detox, as it were?

00;41;02;28 – 00;41;07;16

Aaron

How do you get back to a a reality where you can live in and want to live in.

00;41;08;02 – 00;41;28;10

Jon

Looking at what you said, Steve, you you came back and you realized like, okay, you excited, travel, you go and it’s kind of like the shock. You know, it’s it’s high friction. It’s it’s ugly, it’s overwhelming. You go through it and you come back. And a secondary effect, aside from experiencing that, is fear. And it sounds like it took you some time to get back to a place of greater normalcy with your daughters.

00;41;28;10 – 00;41;45;05

Jon

You had to walk through and reconcile that and decide how you’re going to behave, which takes some incredible intentionality in facing the effects that it had on you opposed to just try to ignore them. What would or do you think and do you disagree with me again, because I’m fine with that.

00;41;46;09 – 00;41;47;16

Aaron

Let’s back it up, John. Yeah.

00;41;48;16 – 00;42;20;01

Steve

Well, I mean, nefarious is a is a faith based film and the launching pad for Nefarious was actually, you know, prayer and and just just praying that this would end. But so that’s that’s how I navigated it was was through prayer and just going to you know a heavenly father and you know that ultimately does have a solution, you know, in the end.

00;42;21;23 – 00;42;22;01

Steve

Yeah.

00;42;22;20 – 00;42;28;27

Aaron

So I how you went into it is how you came out of it. You had the same you bookended the process.

00;42;29;07 – 00;43;03;18

Steve

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean we heard stories that I couldn’t even be put in the film. They’re just, they’re too much, too dark, you know, in Thailand, if you, if you have the money and the desire, you can actually be boated out to an island. And there will be a person in a room on that island and you can do whatever you want to that person.

00;43;04;11 – 00;43;21;10

Steve

Torture room. You want to know what it’s like to experience murdering somebody. You can you can buy a murder ticket. Hmm. And there’s somebody out there that’s just that stuff is happening in the world, Right?

00;43;21;10 – 00;43;21;20

Aaron

Right.

00;43;21;23 – 00;43;22;17

Steve

It’s crazy.

00;43;23;01 – 00;43;32;01

Aaron

And we want to pull up the veil. It’s like that’s sometimes the easy solution. A terrible solution at all. But mentally, people just go, I just want to look at it.

00;43;32;12 – 00;43;32;21

Steve

Yeah.

00;43;33;04 – 00;43;35;08

Aaron

They live over here and shut us.

00;43;35;23 – 00;43;58;02

Steve

You know, in the communities. And it’s not just, you know, the old adages that it’s, you know, as long as it’s not in my backyard. Right. You know, I meant you mentioned Thailand and you think that’s it’s Thailand. But I. I hate Vegas. I hate Las Vegas. You guys ever been to Las Vegas? Yeah. You know, all cards.

00;43;58;02 – 00;44;15;21

Steve

You hear those guys flipping? Yeah. Yep. Women to your door in 15 minutes. Hmm. That’s all. It’s all human trafficking. Hmm. And it’s, like, rampant in Las Vegas. I think the decadence of Las Vegas is such a dark city in our own country.

00;44;16;00 – 00;44;20;14

Aaron

Yeah, it ruins that experience. They’re everywhere. A good one, right?

00;44;21;19 – 00;44;24;18

Jon

You know, that kind of brings back an idea I had a second ago I was going to ask you about.

00;44;24;18 – 00;44;26;07

Steve

So the.

00;44;26;07 – 00;44;57;09

Jon

That’s happening in Las Vegas, right In broad daylight, right? Yeah. The cards and the ability to do that. And you’ll be able to help me remember who said this and nefarious. But they someone mentioned that organized crime in order to exist has to rely on government support in some form or function like it is a on some form or function some of of coexistence.

00;44;57;09 – 00;44;58;14

Jon

Is that ring any bells?

00;45;00;07 – 00;45;48;24

Steve

You know, it doesn’t. And it’s hard to me it’s harder for me to speak to that stuff. Well, because Benjy was mostly the researcher, I was the creative. I did lighting and and, you know, and and took photos. But, you know, I’d really encourage people to to, to look up Benji Nola on YouTube because he’s got some amazing teachings on, you know, how to walk in righteousness in a porn ified world and he speaks with such clarity on this and so not not, not in addition to being a filmmaker.

00;45;48;24 – 00;46;20;19

Steve

He really is an abolition abolitionist and an a fantastic teacher. He’s incredibly well read on the subject matter. And he’s he’s just a fantastic a fantastic leader. But but just more of those kind of nuances of of walking out our own lives as men in a porn ified world. Benji speaks to it so well but there’s his teachings are available.

00;46;21;06 – 00;46;28;04

Aaron

Excellent. What what other action steps out of this film So we have you know, check out nefarious for sure like.

00;46;28;29 – 00;46;29;11

Steve

No.

00;46;30;09 – 00;46;49;04

Aaron

Get get yourself your mind ready for it but it’s definitely needs to be seen. Don’t don’t close your eyes to it Certainly check out Benji. Is there any other action steps that you would encourage people instead of being nonresponsive to the subject what is the response that would be best? Do you think it would be.

00;46;49;18 – 00;46;50;09

Steve

Hope for.

00;46;51;01 – 00;46;52;17

Aaron

From somebody who’s now.

00;46;52;17 – 00;47;18;18

Steve

Aware? Well, I think Exodus Cry is worthy of financial support. Help them make more movies and it costs money to get movies out and to do them well and and, you know, pay a staff and but they’re they’re mostly missional in what they do. And so they do raise support. So an easy action step is to open up your wallet.

00;47;19;17 – 00;47;28;21

Steve

Often often, you know, a real heart response is genuine when when you can.

00;47;29;22 – 00;47;30;09

Aaron

Put money to.

00;47;30;15 – 00;47;31;21

Steve

Release your finances.

00;47;31;22 – 00;47;32;12

Aaron

Right.

00;47;32;12 – 00;47;46;06

Steve

To, you know, to to combat it. But, you know, there’s there’s other ministries out there, you know, doing it, exploring them all. But Exodus Cry is just who I who I know.