*NEW & IMPROVED AUDIO! 

Episode 20 from The Grit Theory. 

Today we explore the following concepts in our pursuit to better understand our relationship with work and life. 

“You are entitled to the works, not to the rewards.” – Bhagavad Gita

“Man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather he must recognize that it is he who is asked.” – Viktor Frankl 

Highlights include: 
– Focus on the work. 
– Creating the meaning of life.  
– Desire as a contract with yourself. 
– What are you entitled to?
– Looking in the mirror. 
– Repeating 0 to 18
– Embrace the process. 
– Your two lives. 
– Thank you for joining us in the journey. 

Did you find value in today’s conversation? SHARE IT! 

Also, check out Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be waymakers HERE.

Do you want to learn more? Check out:

The Book: Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be WayMakers.

The Podcast: “Be Relentless Podcast”

The Fuel: Sisu Stamina, Performance Evolved

Linktree: Here.

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Episode Transcript

00;00;00;15 – 00;00;21;16

Jon

So today we’re having a topical conversation and exploration. Right. And that’s the other thing that I really love from the onset. You and I have been journeymen, looking to share the journey of our conversations, the exploration with those who want to listen and join in the conversation. That’s right. So to those who have endured some of the learning curves, thank you.

00;00;22;15 – 00;00;47;19

Jon

And we’ll keep on chugging on. Yep. But today’s conversation is kind of fun, and there’s a few ideas really from all different sources of philosophy that we can we can discuss and explore and see if we want to call Barbara Streisand on it or we think there’s some truth to it and just have some fun with. But it kind of circles around the idea of the meaning of life, right?

00;00;48;01 – 00;01;12;27

Jon

And how we have agency in determining how we live and how valuable that is. Mm hmm. Right. And that’s that is the actionable takeaway that I’m hoping to further solidify in my mind through our conversation. That’s right. Is All right. Let’s test this idea and see how much control can I take of what is the value of living?

00;01;13;02 – 00;01;13;16

Jon

That’s right.

00;01;13;27 – 00;01;38;13

Aaron

Yeah, I think. Yeah. And I’m trying. I’m, like, voicing my mind not to go into, like, political events right now, but I’m thinking about how there’s so much narrative out there. And this isn’t even this is an old problem where people don’t really they really take responsibility for what they can control in their life. And this a lot of our conversation, right, that we’re going to get into is, you know, what are the things that we do decide to do?

00;01;38;27 – 00;01;46;03

Aaron

What do we have control over and what value that is going to bring to not just ourselves, but the world we live in?

00;01;46;05 – 00;02;09;19

Jon

Mm hmm. Correct. So that there’s a few, I think, nuggets that we can use to kind of start us off just to kind of frame it in right there. And I really enjoy them. So one is from Viktor Frankl and in his book, In Search of Meaning is where he talks about a lot. But his entire life’s work really surrounds the the theory here.

00;02;09;19 – 00;02;29;28

Jon

And if you aren’t familiar with Viktor Frankl, he was a psychologist who endured six concentration camps during World War Two, survived them, and then fathered Largo therapy, which is a form of psychological practice, but had some interesting perspectives on like finding the value in life.

00;02;30;02 – 00;02;33;10

Aaron

He is certainly qualified to speak on mental fortitude.

00;02;33;27 – 00;02;53;25

Jon

I think so. And yeah, and one of the things I just always remember from reading his book is talking about the beauty of a flower that was not yet trampled in the middle of a concentration camp as like the smoke is rising from the crematoriums. Right. So it’s like, you know, or the young lady who found beauty in the willow tree outside of her window.

00;02;54;01 – 00;03;15;03

Jon

Yeah. And like how those sometimes finding those simple things just kept you alive. Right. So it’s kind of fun. And here’s the premise. At least one of the quotes attributed to him, you know, and I think it hits the center point, but man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather he must recognize that it is he who is asked.

00;03;16;07 – 00;03;40;23

Jon

Put put another way, the meaning of life is to give life meaning. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of changes the game, right? Because if we take that as a starting point and then we inject this other, if we just think about that for a minute, where does that leave you? Hmm? Like, what if. What does it mean?

00;03;41;03 – 00;03;44;13

Jon

It’s up to us to answer the question in the moment.

00;03;45;11 – 00;04;26;10

Aaron

It’s a I. I perceived as a couple of different ways. Like one I think of if you allow for this kind of coast mentality where you’re you’re living your life and you’re letting life tell you who you are, what’s happening, it will tell you something. It will it will make you go in a direction of passivity and one that really maybe allows you to do things even that are destructive or lazy or really not engaging, or it will tell you all the things you can’t do or or it will only let you live life with your eyes and not with your mind and your vision.

00;04;27;05 – 00;04;55;09

Aaron

And so to me, the greater narrative of life is not what is just what is seen in front of you. There’s there’s a metanarrative. There’s something that’s very much larger than what that we have. We all are suspicious of it. And we’re asking ourselves, what is, what is my job in that? And what’s amazing is that much of it is what do you choose to contribute to what is greater than what is just seen?

00;04;56;00 – 00;05;18;10

Jon

Yeah, I think the metanarrative right is is part of how you answer the question. Right. Because. Because if I just am sitting here like what can I do for John today? I’m not going to find a lot of motivation after a certain point, it’s going to peter out real quick. So it’s like if all I’m doing is serving some small task that is dead, when once it’s complete, I’m going to run out of steam.

00;05;18;10 – 00;05;33;00

Jon

Right. You know, so it’s like that. There’s this very old print, this very old thought that you have to find an ideal bigger than yourself that is not truly attainable, but that you can spend your life well in the pursuit of.

00;05;33;03 – 00;05;49;19

Aaron

Well, Frankel mentions this elsewhere in his writings that he said that we will we will just that we will not be able to continue a cause unless it’s greater than ourselves or it’s for someone else. It will, as you say, going to peter out. Yeah, it has to be bigger than that.

00;05;50;04 – 00;05;53;06

Jon

Absolutely.

00;05;53;18 – 00;06;11;22

Aaron

I think vanity only takes us so far. And what’s amazing is that if if vanity is our aim, look no further than the fact that we get old, you know, eventually, no matter what. And we’ve we’ve we’ve seen those people that have clung too hard to trying to act like they look like they’re 20 or something. It’s just like it’s inevitable.

00;06;11;22 – 00;06;15;24

Aaron

Vanity goes away. But the narrative doesn’t. Our contribution to it doesn’t.

00;06;16;21 – 00;06;38;07

Jon

Well, what I’m reminded of is you see this a lot in career, in athletics and in like certain more, you could say, suicidally set goals maybe. Yeah, a lot of them are very self-serving, right? So it’s like, get married, have kids, buy a house. Right. Right. Make a certain amount of money. Mm hmm. Maybe if you’re an athlete, it’s get to the Olympics or if you’re a football player or the NFL.

00;06;38;15 – 00;07;03;26

Jon

Yep. Right. Those are fun. And there’s how you interact with some of those. Very well may become bigger than that. Right. But at their base level, they’re very self-serving. I want to go to the Olympics. Right. I need to achieve this play in the NFL or when the Super Bowl. You know, I want to earn this much money and check the block and have a family and kids and a house.

00;07;04;03 – 00;07;22;28

Jon

You know, so like when you look at those and I’m reminded of a Brooks David Brooks book, The Second Mountain here, and the whole concept is what happens once you get to the finish line and there’s the self-serving tasks. Right. Like there’s that first mountain, you peak it and you’re making the money. You’ve won, you’ve medaled in the Olympics and everything.

00;07;22;28 – 00;07;41;22

Jon

It’s like, now what? Right. Right. And that’s where he he premises the idea of a second mountain. Right. And that’s where it’s like, okay, well, I’ve accomplished these things. I also now have the freedom that comes with some of that accomplishment. Right. My needs are being met in such a way, like, you know, the hierarchy of needs. I’m not starving.

00;07;41;22 – 00;08;02;29

Jon

I have resources. So I have a bit more freedom to think because you’re not going to think existentially or philosophically if you’re starving. Right. I think that’s rare. I guess Viktor Frankl may actually be proving us wrong here, but, you know, like. But but as a premise, right? Like, if you’re worried about your next meal, that’s probably going to consume more of your mindset then like, what’s the meaning of life?

00;08;02;29 – 00;08;22;19

Jon

Or how can I better live this thing? Right. But the whole idea is like, once you get to a certain point, you know, a lot of people who accomplish is because they’ve spent a decade pursuing they’ll talk about this depression. It kind of hits them once they’ve realized they’ve, quote unquote, made it. Right. And I think that’s because back to the ideal thing that we’re talking about.

00;08;23;12 – 00;08;40;01

Jon

If you’re not pursuing something bigger than yourself, something that’s inspiring. Mm hmm. Um, something that forces you to become better. Almost as, like, an act of service, typically. Then then you’re going to hit a point where you lose meaning in that. Right, Right.

00;08;40;01 – 00;09;01;24

Aaron

Well, it’s sort of the I think it’s the core narrative of anybody who’s who’s even suicidal. Right. I mean, that’s what you hear is like, my life is not contributing to anything. It’d be better like this world will be better off without me. It’s like is the voice we think is unique, but it’s it’s common. Like it’s the same evil narrative that’s attacking our mind all the time.

00;09;02;18 – 00;09;24;04

Aaron

You know, maybe. Maybe you aren’t worth anything. And the fact is, that’s. I guess both are true. You you aren’t worth anything. And you are worth something in the sense that what are you going to do with your life? I mean, you could call on the bed and do nothing, contribute nothing. I think we all have intrinsic value, as evidenced by even our Declaration of Independence.

00;09;24;04 – 00;09;37;06

Aaron

I mean, people do have value in just being. But they do they have value to society or value to the greater narrative of human life, to humankind. That’s up to us if we’re going to do something about that.

00;09;37;14 – 00;10;03;03

Jon

Yeah. And that’s equality of opportunity versus equality of or versus equality output, right. Or equity of output. And they’re different. I think what you’re hitting is the idea and this is not Fraenkel, it’s younger. The other the other dude who is a alongside young kind of competing ideas of the time for forgetting his name at the Freud. Yeah, Freud it, it’s attributed I think to one of them, maybe even Nietzsche.

00;10;03;03 – 00;10;06;26

Jon

So I’m going to stop guessing. It’s one of those guys I know. It’s just not.

00;10;06;26 – 00;10;11;24

Aaron

Franco One of those renaissance. ZE You know, words like father, ecologist.

00;10;11;24 – 00;10;32;10

Jon

Psychology, philosophy. Yeah, but damn, it’s just if you have a Y, you can withstand anyone. Right? And like, there’s a lot of that sprinkled in. Well, no, he. He directly attributes it. Oh, really? He builds on it a lot. And he talks about, like, how the second people are going to decide on the camps, if he can help them find a Y, that a much higher chance of surviving.

00;10;32;15 – 00;10;43;26

Jon

Mm hmm. Right. Like, only you can be the father to your daughter. Only you can create this book and bring this book to life. Or. But once, whether it was a work or relationship or something, they got the pet back in the step.

00;10;44;07 – 00;10;52;08

Aaron

Yeah, I think the quote was those who have a way to live. Uh, can bear almost any how.

00;10;52;22 – 00;11;13;10

Jon

Yeah, they give in. In what I think it all comes to is like, well, what’s the, what’s the value of the Y? Right. Like, well how does that functionally stink and help me? And I think it’s a matter of entitlement. Yeah, right. What do you believe is owed to you? Right. You know, and there’s this Hindu principle that you’re entitled to the works, but never the fruits, never the rewards.

00;11;13;22 – 00;11;24;12

Jon

And that’s an interesting thought because if you can learn something really cool but you can never share it with anyone, would you still want to learn it? Huh?

00;11;25;18 – 00;11;32;15

Aaron

That’s a fair question. Yeah. So is it is it good enough that you could teach yourself in the mirror or say it in the mirror?

00;11;32;28 – 00;11;49;19

Jon

Is it is it worth doing even if you can never share it? Right. Right. Because like such and I just heard this thing because I think a lot of times and I’m guilty of this, sometimes I want to sound smart, like I want people to think I’m smart in I want people to think I’m smart and strong and all these things.

00;11;49;19 – 00;12;08;20

Jon

But it’s like, okay, I can learn this new thing, but is it still worth learning to me if I can never share it? That’s a good litmus test in my mind of if I still want to learn it, then it’s worth learning. It’s kind of a filtration process, right? And it goes back to what am I entitled to my entitled to?

00;12;09;02 – 00;12;25;26

Jon

Getting to share with you, Aaron, some new thing I learned and feel cool about it. Mm hmm. Or am I entitled to the work of learning and the benefit of that thought self Agreed. You know, and I think that’s a real premise that ties directly to, okay, if we’re in a situation, how we respond to it is meaningful.

00;12;26;25 – 00;12;51;26

Aaron

Yeah, it’s it it translates to everything else we have. I mean, if you work for fruit, fruit, it’s like to me it’s like making money and buying a meal and thinking that you’re building equity in your life. A meal. The meal is for the moment, the fruit is for the moment. It’s very it’s supposed to be temporary. It’s sort of like it’s sort of like, good job, but you don’t stay there.

00;12;51;26 – 00;13;18;11

Aaron

You go right back to the shovel, the plow, as it were. Right. Because the ethic is the real win. Like when you can learn the value of putting your mind to something, whatever it is, you’re just you’re used to hard work. It’s just and you enjoy the work and the self. In fact, it’s it’s kind of a blessing and just in that, like, I’m enjoying this process.

00;13;18;13 – 00;13;24;28

Aaron

Mm hmm. You know, they get fruit. Great. Oftentimes the fruit is a surprise. Like, Oh, I did it.

00;13;25;04 – 00;13;47;00

Jon

Yeah. Wow. I mean, frankly, I remember when we when we did fix the audio quality, he jumped up and hugged each other. Yeah, I had an endorphin rush because it’s like it was a reward to months of trying. Yeah. And it finally came, frankly, unexpectedly. Yeah. I wasn’t losing hope, but I was getting very much to the point of like, I don’t know how to fix this, right?

00;13;47;00 – 00;14;00;19

Jon

So start just wit me a bit. Not that we’re going to stop trying to fix it, but it was such an elation, right? And that was a joy that we can never share with anyone. Yeah, but, man, it was sweet. And that was an unexpected reward for us. Yeah.

00;14;01;00 – 00;14;08;22

Aaron

And it was a lot of just like, Yeah, because you’re just doing the role of like, okay, just keep going, keep going. Don’t quit. Don’t quit.

00;14;08;22 – 00;14;09;03

Jon

And no, and.

00;14;09;04 – 00;14;12;24

Aaron

Then all of a sudden, hey, we. Something great happened. Yeah.

00;14;12;24 – 00;14;23;00

Jon

And like, no, we’re losing people through the fight, knowing that people are like, I’m not going to listen to this because I can’t hear it well and like, talk about just a little bit discouraging. So it’s it’s so nice to be sitting here.

00;14;23;13 – 00;15;02;19

Aaron

I agree. I agree. I so I want to I just have a kind of a weird picture that just come to mind. I want to think of this. So like, I think about like this 18 year capsule we have of human growth from 0 to 18. Okay. And there’s there’s sort of like these sections of it and it’s I’ll be succinct and not as articulating as I want to be, but basically it’s you start with I only need all the time, you know, and that first like that first of year, if you’ve ever had a baby in your life, all they want to do is, is do all the wrong things and they don’t know

00;15;02;19 – 00;15;16;18

Aaron

how to live. And I feel like the first year trying to keep things alive because what they’re doing is they’re trying to they’re trying to crawl downstairs. They’re trying to not eat correctly. They don’t sleep correctly. They they they hurt themselves all the time.

00;15;16;24 – 00;15;19;29

Jon

They’re trying to get you to kill them. Yeah. Yeah.

00;15;19;29 – 00;15;37;14

Aaron

They’re not pleasant. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But but that’s like, that’s the season they’re in, like I need. And then it’s like. And then they’re starting to try their functions and they’re learning all this, and then eventually they’re going to need you to start teaching. And eventually they start doing things on their own and they start learning how to do this.

00;15;37;24 – 00;15;58;16

Aaron

And then they, they’re developing. And then there’s so much I mean, just so many tens of thousands and maybe millions of of synaptic gaps that are being filled. I mean, just thinking about moving a finger for the first time or the weight of your leg and how it moves and how to talk and form sentences and thoughts and then abstract ideas later on.

00;15;59;03 – 00;16;22;07

Aaron

But eventually they get to like the high school years, and that’s what I’m in with one of my kids. And they start to have their own thoughts. They start and it’s very it’s very chaotic because they have like this very, very complex, sleek, call it a Lamborghini that they have access to, but they have no ability to drive it or care for it correctly.

00;16;22;21 – 00;16;40;06

Aaron

And so it’s very it’s a lot of falling down. It’s a lot of missteps and that kind of thing. But they once they start feeling like they’re starting to get like, I get how to eat, I get how to walk, I get how I go to school, I get how to learn. Now there’s sort of a suspicion like, okay, now what?

00;16;40;11 – 00;17;09;17

Aaron

What’s next? What’s next? Like, well, what isn’t enough that you have a food and shelter and all these things and they kind of like, No, I want more. Is it enough that you, like can pass the test and just get through high school? Now I kind of want more. And this people have varying timestamps in their life. You know, some people are thinking about the 25 year old that needs to have these thoughts, like maybe there’s something more than being cared for, but eventually we have to stop the fruit.

00;17;09;22 – 00;17;33;22

Aaron

It’s like the fruit eventually doesn’t. It kind of sours in her mouth. Like, I really want to be working at something that’s bigger than this, that that I, I feel like that’s kind of our listeners because grit only exists if you are, are unhappy where you’re at or you are feeling as if there is something greater than what’s in the present.

00;17;33;22 – 00;17;52;08

Aaron

There’s something bigger out there that you want to chase. But I we all now are understanding that there’s a lot of failure on the way, and this is where grit kind of kicks in. We you have to go, okay, I can’t quit. It’s too important that I’m. What I’m chasing is way too important for me to quit on it.

00;17;52;23 – 00;18;17;05

Aaron

But these are like higher level thinking what you’re doing right now. This like chasing the thing that you’re going after. This is you adulting. This is you going to the the fourth level of of achievement. We’re no longer 12, 13, 15 years old. We’re doing new things. I hope it doesn’t look like you’re at that age. We are doing things that are really important and.

00;18;19;22 – 00;18;45;09

Jon

I love that because I think that really articulate, that really puts into perspective kind of what we’re talking about. Second goal one unpopular opinion, Just because I have found it humorous, as you said, is if you have a 19 year old who’s not having he’s not working to improve their circumstances and pursue something, whatever that is, hopefully independence, I would I would posit it’s probably on the parents, you know, just going to put that out there.

00;18;45;24 – 00;18;47;08

Aaron

And her comments are blowing up.

00;18;47;10 – 00;18;50;26

Jon

Yeah, I’m just going to put it out there. It’s probably on the parents.

00;18;52;09 – 00;19;03;08

Aaron

Well, we got to wonder what we’re putting out there because I know my ten year old mimics everything I do. So what am I and what I don’t do too well?

00;19;03;11 – 00;19;17;15

Jon

And here’s the thing. What are you what are you expecting of them? Right? Are you trying to make the road safe for them? Are you preparing them for the trials of the road? Because just to provide a little bit more context on here, it’s the parents. Remember, guys, our conversations here said Aaron and I can hold up the mirror to each other.

00;19;17;19 – 00;19;18;01

Aaron

Oh, yeah.

00;19;18;01 – 00;19;35;11

Jon

You won’t be spared that pain, you know? So it’s like I remember growing up, I was fortunate enough that my father let me stay in the house past 18, but it was under conditions and those conditions were very well known to me. I’m not joking. Yeah, like, if I was going to.

00;19;35;11 – 00;19;36;12

Aaron

Be uncomfortable, I.

00;19;36;12 – 00;19;59;21

Jon

Knew for a fact. And it was I think it was the most loving thing he could do. If I was just going to lollygag around, Yeah, I would have the painful experience of figuring out what that’s like to provide 100% for myself to lollygag. Yeah, but he would support and catalyze my efforts further if I was spinning myself worthily in preparation for exiting the home.

00;19;59;24 – 00;20;23;09

Jon

Yeah. And that was a gift, right? Yeah. Like I’m not saying 19. Kick them out. I’m just saying if you’re upset that you have a grown adult in your house acting like a child, put some parameters on them. Yeah. So that they have to start acting like an adult or give them the hard road. And I’m not. I like I will duplicate to the best of my ability and build on where I think is necessary.

00;20;23;10 – 00;20;42;13

Jon

Like where I see fit for my children. Right? I’m not going to kick them out at 18, but they will know that they are to be pursuing something of value and proving themselves. And and I’m not I’m definitively not the first person to think this way. I know there’s a hundred hundreds of examples of people who will teach to this, and I think it’s just good stewardship.

00;20;42;13 – 00;20;48;21

Jon

But that’s the unpopular opinion for the day. So if you’re upset about that, don’t kid think about your parenting and think you.

00;20;49;01 – 00;20;55;13

Aaron

Think, yeah, all adhere. Here’s it I think this is what’s incumbent incumbent upon us like this never stops.

00;20;55;17 – 00;20;55;27

Jon

No.

00;20;56;09 – 00;21;02;03

Aaron

So like what you’re asking an 18 year old when I’m asking my ten year old to do, I am also doing.

00;21;02;15 – 00;21;20;14

Jon

And that’s what I was going to say. So beautiful about your now do you zero 18 everything cyclical. We go through seasons, right? Why is there midlife crisis roughly another 18 issues later. Right. If you don’t go through with any self-awareness or intentionality, you’re going to wake up in your mid thirties being, I’m getting old and you’re going to freak out, right?

00;21;20;15 – 00;21;28;11

Jon

Because you’re not pursuing anything. You’re just hitting the motions. Yeah, you’re going to freak out. Yeah. And why wouldn’t you? Life is slipping away, man. You’re losing it.

00;21;28;12 – 00;21;29;09

Aaron

Yeah, exactly.

00;21;29;10 – 00;21;35;19

Jon

Die decrepit and mostly alone in a filled in. I’m being a little theatrical.

00;21;35;23 – 00;21;36;20

Aaron

Like it is.

00;21;36;20 – 00;21;53;27

Jon

Yeah, but imagine, like, you know, like you said, their needs are met, right? These, you know, when a kid’s grown up, their needs get met, and they’re learning in school, and they’re learning to think and they’re learning the question and they’re asking what is the value of life in another great way. I heard that question answers because yeah, the value of life is because.

00;21;53;28 – 00;22;11;20

Jon

Yeah, and it’s kind of frustrating, but it it’s like, well, it brings back to you. You’re right. Like if I’m thankful there’s not a meaning of life, I can one set one because then we lose our freedom, right? We lose our free agency and our ability to live and explore. But if the meaning is to live well in the moment.

00;22;11;26 – 00;22;12;03

Aaron

Yeah.

00;22;12;12 – 00;22;28;26

Jon

Right. Yeah. Like I wish I had been taught. Like I wish I knew that going through that first phase of existential crisis, right? Like, hey, the meaning. But is to live well and do the best you can at the moment and aim to something bigger than yourself. Yeah, to the best of your ability. Right. It’s profound, though. It’s this.

00;22;29;07 – 00;22;39;16

Jon

I think it’s actionable. Be helpful and it relieves the burden of what am I missing? Because it answers that question of I’m missing living now.

00;22;39;16 – 00;23;06;12

Aaron

That’s right. That’s right. And the living now is not you feeling good all the time that sometimes most of the time living now is it’s is you got to be working at it. That living well is you tending the garden, as it were. That’s that’s the good stuff. And I would say and this is just my own personal journey, I’d say the difference between me loving fruit and loving work is when I love fruit.

00;23;06;12 – 00;23;15;22

Aaron

These are the pleasures of life. If that was if that’s all I’m trying to do, people tend to be in the way they they tend to be great.

00;23;15;22 – 00;23;16;17

Jon

What a great look.

00;23;16;22 – 00;23;26;10

Aaron

And the opposite is true when we’re when we love our mission. When you love your mission, people are the solution. And you want more of them in your life.

00;23;26;25 – 00;23;44;28

Jon

I’m going to say it back to you because I just thought that was really profound for me. Like that just reveal. Oh, man, you’re illuminating that. That illuminated a shadow in my mind. And that’s what a great cue when I’m starting to look and feel like these things are, get in the way. I’m I can absolutely see the correlation now, right?

00;23;44;28 – 00;23;48;00

Jon

Like, no, I’m serious. Like, I’m like, oh, when I’m starting to feel the pressure of.

00;23;48;00 – 00;23;48;19

Aaron

Like, oh.

00;23;48;23 – 00;24;18;08

Jon

I wish the kids were like, work or I wish this or this person’s, you know, to an extent it’s 100%. I’m focused too much and trying to get to a like get to a reward or treasure trophy or whatever. If I’m just if I’m living in the now and focusing on the relationships and managing my time well and focused on the work and improving myself through that and improving my craft, then to your point, it’s absolutely true.

00;24;18;08 – 00;24;27;10

Jon

Those people aren’t in the way they’re your encourages, right? You know, Yeah. And maybe there’s someone who is in the way and that goes back to like be selective of who you’re with. But I think in the context for talking about That’s brilliant.

00;24;27;26 – 00;24;28;26

Aaron

I love it. Well, thanks.

00;24;28;27 – 00;24;29;20

Jon

Yeah, you’re welcome.

00;24;30;09 – 00;24;32;24

Aaron

It’s what happens when you talk to a friend. Some of the good stuff comes out of a.

00;24;33;27 – 00;24;54;23

Jon

Well, and that’s the thing of like, really shutting your mind up to listen. Right. Because I have a few points I’d love to hit today, and I’m. I’m doing the best I can to really just shut my brain up and listen to what you’re saying. And because of that, I just I’ve received that gift, you know, that’s going to I can already tell it’s already helping me.

00;24;55;03 – 00;25;16;09

Jon

I just look at things like, Yep, just focus on the work, right? Focus on how like, how can we make this the best conversation possible for each other and for those listening, you know, And it’s by being present and listening to each other and sharing thoughts and it kind of goes, There is this really cool thought. I think Confucius kind of fathered it.

00;25;16;21 – 00;25;46;13

Jon

But everybody has two lives, right? Two lives, every single person. And the second one starts when they realize they only have one, right? Like, it’s kind of fun. It goes straight back to, well, what’s the meaning of life? To give life meaning? Because to live fully in the moment, to the best of your ability. If you’re not living fully in the moment, you’re wasting your life.

00;25;46;27 – 00;25;51;08

Jon

You’re discarding it, and you can be born anew when you realize, Man, this is my shot.

00;25;51;12 – 00;26;02;00

Aaron

Yeah, absolutely. This is a gift right now. Yeah. What am I going to do with it? And am I going to take the shortcut and go right to something that I’m not owed?

00;26;02;08 – 00;26;02;18

Jon

Hmm?

00;26;04;04 – 00;26;15;29

Aaron

Or do I just work hard at it? Take care of those people around us, and then one day be surprised by something I’ve been given a gift versus something I owe. I feel like I’m owed. Yeah, it’s.

00;26;15;29 – 00;26;19;25

Jon

Like a I’ve been working it for 13 years, and now I’m an overnight success.

00;26;20;00 – 00;26;22;09

Aaron

Right. Yes, We hear it all the time. Right.

00;26;22;11 – 00;26;42;16

Jon

Delivered just consistently going in. And I’m in this phase of my life right now where I’m trying to remove a lot. I’m trying to do a lot less. Right. But not with a butcher’s knife anymore. I’m not trying to hack things off, to discard, to focus in. I want to do less, not so that I’m spending less energy or time or effort, but I want to do fewer things better and more fully.

00;26;42;28 – 00;26;57;00

Jon

Right? Not like not to specialize, but to to just be better at a to give a stronger yes to fewer things so that I can say no to the less you think because you.

00;26;57;01 – 00;27;03;01

Aaron

Been because you’ve thought very deeply about what are the what are those few things that you’re really focusing.

00;27;03;01 – 00;27;23;29

Jon

On, Right. Yeah. I’m thinking very deeply about them because, like, I realized that, you know, since leaving in the military and since leaving the military and really until like this last month and a half, I’d say I’ve been pushing the limit to test. All right, John, where is your boundaries on how much you can carry? Where would your ambition stop?

00;27;24;04 – 00;27;43;14

Jon

Right. And you realize that you’re doing too much. I’ve been testing in test testing. I found it, and it was soul crushing. Finally, I woke up. I said, Who do I train? It was crushing, but it wasn’t that I was carrying too much weight. It was that was caring too many things. Yeah. And that that was big for me.

00;27;43;14 – 00;27;58;20

Jon

So it’s like, okay, I was able to cut off a few things at the butcher knife, right? Like, that’s an easy no, that’s an easy no with this new perspective. And then I kind of just sat and asked, what’s going to come back to me right? And where I am now is I feel pretty good about the things that I’m doing.

00;27;58;29 – 00;28;26;15

Jon

But I’ve taken a scalpel out like a surgical instrument, and I’m looking at how can I shave off this thing or remove this unhealthy thing. It how can I just continuously get a percent more focused on a few things or on the one on a few things that support the one thing that I truly desire. And one of the things that’s really helped with that idea is Bomber, I don’t know the gentleman’s name.

00;28;27;01 – 00;29;00;16

Jon

If I think of it, I’ll try and credit it in the end. I think it originally comes from Confucius again, though, and it’s it’s about this idea of a contract you make with yourself when you desire something. And that contract is if you desire something, you’re choosing to make an agreement with yourself that you will be unhappy until the desires are fulfilled and if that’s the case, I don’t think we can get rid of desire, but we can choose to train ourselves on what we will allow ourselves to desire.

00;29;01;05 – 00;29;23;26

Jon

And you know, the thing I’m working through with that is I have one thing that I desire, like one very specific thing that I see not as the end state, but as the stepping stone to the rest of my life. Mm hmm. And if I’m looking at everything through tons of does it help me accomplish that one desire?

00;29;24;08 – 00;29;43;18

Jon

Mm hmm. And it’s actually been very freeing because it’s like I have a very old truck. I love it. But, man, I’ve been looking at some of the Fords and Dodges rolling down the road and those are so cool. And I’m like, Does that help with your desire? No. Then I don’t care. It it’s been amazing because it’s like, Oh, I love the truck more.

00;29;43;29 – 00;29;44;19

Jon

I’m happier.

00;29;44;20 – 00;30;09;05

Aaron

That’s right. Well, now this is what I did is a thing. Mm hmm. Cause you just. Just you could just go get the fruit real quick without do the work. It’s a real problem. And. And then. And then when you get that fruit too early, it sours very quickly, and you realize, Oh, man, I could have done this a different way versus like versus you getting all the benefit of chasing that dream and turning into something greater even.

00;30;09;07 – 00;30;24;27

Aaron

Mm hmm. And by the time you’re ready to get that truck or whatever that thing is, you know, these are these are just these are innocuous things that we chase after. You know, there’s greater things that are happening, but they do feel good, but they’re not. Why we do the things we can’t make set up.

00;30;25;15 – 00;30;27;07

Jon

Well, they get put in their proper perspective.

00;30;27;07 – 00;30;27;17

Aaron

Right?

00;30;28;07 – 00;30;46;08

Jon

Does the truck matter? Not at all. Right. Will it be fun if someday I have the resources to be able to go and get one? Yeah, of course it’ll be fun. But what’s nice is it’s putting back in the proper hierarchy what we’re talking about here. Right? What do I really want? You know, do I want fruits that will become my master?

00;30;46;08 – 00;31;07;05

Jon

Do I want, like, these gifts that will become my master? Because I’m really just in getting myself and furthering myself in the rat race? Or do I want to get better, hone my craft, pursue that one desire I’m allowing myself. Right. Right. And we were talking about this earlier, right? Because you sent me this amazing distillation from atomic habits.

00;31;07;25 – 00;31;22;05

Jon

And I had misquoted maybe on an episode of just When We’re working out. But priority was a priority for 500 years. Yeah. And then, like, we try to bend reality by making it a priority.

00;31;22;05 – 00;31;43;24

Aaron

Yeah. Because when you think about that priority. Yeah, priority. The word priority is singular has been forever until very recently in human history, that we have paralyzed priorities. And so priority was it was a military term like this is the one thing we have to do before all else or we will die. Yeah, right kind of thing. And then we’re like, and then we’ve put realize that.

00;31;43;28 – 00;32;03;21

Aaron

What are your seven priorities? Like that is so paralyzing. Mm hmm. Like, can you think of it as soldiers? Like, these are seven things all at once you have to do? No, I need the one thing that’s the most important thing. And this makes everything else a lot simpler. And it’s a lot easier to say no to things and be really kind of draconian, I guess about it.

00;32;03;21 – 00;32;08;16

Aaron

Like. Like, No, I’m not doing this thing. It competes with the thing.

00;32;09;21 – 00;32;27;05

Jon

Correct it, and it’s fun because of a really fun tongue in cheek way. To to put that in perspective is if you’re in a boat that’s sinking in the middle of the ocean and you jump off and your clothing gets stuck to the side of the boat and you start going down, there’s only one thing in your mind it’s not getting to land this.

00;32;27;05 – 00;32;27;23

Aaron

Is a priority.

00;32;27;23 – 00;32;34;01

Jon

It’s getting to the surface because if you don’t breathe, you’re dead. Everything else is gone.

00;32;34;15 – 00;32;37;21

Aaron

You’ve become the best swimmer you could possibly be in that moment. There’s one.

00;32;37;21 – 00;32;53;27

Jon

Thing here. I need air, right? And that is a priority. And once you get there, then your next party is. I need to get out of the water. Right. That’s all that matters. So. So that kind of puts in a fun perspective, though. But like, what if you do the same with pleasure? Like, not pleasure desire? Excuse me?

00;32;54;11 – 00;32;56;13

Jon

It changes things. And I.

00;32;56;13 – 00;32;56;26

Aaron

Like that.

00;32;57;17 – 00;33;00;16

Jon

Did do you recall the 525 exercise?

00;33;01;07 – 00;33;01;28

Aaron

What’s that one again?

00;33;02;08 – 00;33;03;11

Jon

So, Warren Buffett.

00;33;03;27 – 00;33;05;15

Aaron

Oh, yes, I do recall. Do you want.

00;33;05;15 – 00;33;06;03

Jon

To relate it?

00;33;06;05 – 00;33;27;00

Aaron

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s the basically you write down 25 things that are priorities and that would use that word loosely, you know, priorities in your life. 25 goals, goals you’ve been doing or things you’ve been chasing and the new day. And then you take the top five out of the five and then you take the remaining 20 and you say under no circumstances will I do this anymore.

00;33;27;00 – 00;33;29;12

Aaron

Ever, Ever. I love this is done.

00;33;29;25 – 00;33;30;04

Jon

Yeah.

00;33;30;15 – 00;33;40;29

Aaron

It’s an insane, like, insanely like attack oriented way of really living your life with purpose. But Warren Buffett does it. I mean, he’s doing all right.

00;33;40;29 – 00;34;02;10

Jon

And that’s how he coached his pilot. Yeah, right. I loved the back story there. And look it up because it’s been told enough times. I don’t think I need to out here. But it’s a it’s a great story. Yeah. And you just can’t help but think like had we try to do too much. Yeah. And like that’s the thing I’m like, I like I mentioned earlier, I’m walking through right now, it’s like I’m, I’m walking away from.

00;34;02;10 – 00;34;27;02

Jon

I’m still growing it. I’m still learning. Yeah. And just to re solidify something you said earlier, that is what’s so nice about the conversations you and I have. Yeah. We are not authorities on this stuff. Mm hmm. We are going on an adventure together in welcoming people along. Yep. And I think there’s something beautiful about that, at least to me, because I was talking to some of the other day and they really been wanting to do essentially what we’re doing.

00;34;27;03 – 00;34;44;02

Jon

The podcast. Mm hmm. They’re like, I just I don’t have the the masa, you know, I don’t have experience to be able to speak from anything. Yeah. If you’re trying to be an expert, you’re right. Right. But if you just want to invite people on the journey, maybe those who are going through and can find inspiration from it and can encourage you will join you.

00;34;44;10 – 00;34;53;09

Jon

Yep. And that’s kind of where we’re at. And that’s where it’s fun to play with these ideas, explore these ideas, call each other out. Yeah, I think you’re little off.

00;34;53;25 – 00;34;54;09

Aaron

Yeah.

00;34;54;22 – 00;34;55;16

Jon

You do those things.

00;34;55;16 – 00;35;15;12

Aaron

You know, it’s insane about the journey that I’m just thinking about this work fruit analogy is that as far as this friend of yours is getting into it, what’s what’s crazy about the cycle that I’ve noticed is that it’s really hard at first and then eventually it’s not hard anymore. Like you got whatever part of that is like, Yeah, I get that.

00;35;16;02 – 00;35;35;12

Aaron

And then what is your mind? Do I wonder how I can make it harder? Right. It’s like, that’s your whole life. It’s like and people are so afraid of it. Like, this solution is like, I want my life to be easy. I want to be. I wanted to get the easy life. It’s like, what if you have a mind that’s like, ready for the difficult all the time?

00;35;35;12 – 00;35;48;10

Aaron

Like you’ve trained it. Like you’re not afraid of it. You’re not afraid of anything because you know there’s actionable steps to be able to accomplish it. That’s the mind I want when I’m getting old. Like, still got the fight in me. Like, bring it.

00;35;49;16 – 00;36;08;14

Jon

That’s awesome. And I think looking at that, though, it’s like, okay, well, how do you define work? Right? Because And how and how do you define passion? Because those are like catch words that could really tangle you up. I’ve been tangled on them for a long time and still untangling myself in many ways. But it’s like, well, okay, what if I look at work as doing things I don’t want to do?

00;36;08;22 – 00;36;34;09

Jon

Mm hmm. Okay. And what if I look at passion as just doing the things I enjoy? You know, doing this podcast to many would be work. Mm hmm. Doing this podcast for me is play. It’s fun. Mm hmm. So that’s one of the things that gives me a lot of confidence in I believe it’s the same for you, is if this is fun for us, this is, in our minds, a passion project, a leisure activity, then no one can outwork us here because we are being recharged.

00;36;34;09 – 00;36;39;09

Jon

Doing this where others who are not enjoying it are being depleted. That’s a game changer all the way.

00;36;39;23 – 00;36;56;22

Aaron

All the way. Yeah, I can I can smile and play the game, you know, and the the fatiguing parts or all the things around it. But I, you know, I would I’ll, I’ll endure the gym if I, if I do better on the field. Mm hmm. Like that’s okay with me.

00;36;57;02 – 00;37;16;04

Jon

And there’s also seasons to that, right? Because like, what do you and I love doing this? The conversation. Yeah. Do we like the editing? Do we like these other things? No, but someone does. And at some point we’ll be able to put the filter, the expectation ourselves to say, let’s bring someone who. That’s their joy onto this team.

00;37;16;10 – 00;37;31;27

Jon

Mm hmm. Yeah. And then you and are sent down to the conversations, and they’re thriving, integrating it all together. Right. You know, And that’s like how you can kind of integrate some of the thoughts together. And, yeah, I guess what you and I just have to put a nose to the grindstone, and until that becomes reality. But that’s.

00;37;31;27 – 00;37;41;18

Aaron

Fine. And then the the brother who’s a Richard Branson is a Virgin Airlines guy whom I take it off right now, I.

00;37;42;02 – 00;37;43;17

Jon

Don’t know the name, but this year.

00;37;43;28 – 00;38;06;13

Aaron

Anyway, he’s well, he’s just like, you know, at some point you get tired of building airplanes. You start building spaceships, you know, as a leader because you have enough people around you doing their specific tasks. But it’s amazing. Whatever you’re good at, whatever gives you life. If you’re allowed to do that more often and shrink those priorities, you just think about it a more difficult thing you’ve ever tried.

00;38;06;13 – 00;38;08;20

Aaron

That is. But that’s part of the plane you love.

00;38;08;25 – 00;38;09;05

Jon

Hmm.

00;38;10;12 – 00;38;15;12

Aaron

And then that’s kind of that’s kind of how you achieve great things.

00;38;15;12 – 00;38;28;26

Jon

It it’s fun because, like, I know I it just makes me think of, like, Elon Musk, right? And like, how he keeps expanding and he’s absolutely operating in the owner’s mindset right now. Right.

00;38;31;02 – 00;38;51;05

Jon

But it’s fun to juxtapose him and Bezos because, like, Bezos is very quiet. Right. Like you don’t see much from him. And then like yesterday, he he launched himself into outer space. And you’re like, what is this? And these two, like, titans are just doing crazy stuff. Yes, but but it’s it’s fun because to your point, it’s like your limits change.

00;38;51;17 – 00;39;06;25

Jon

Yeah. As you keep your mind on the work, your limits change. And the thing I want to share with Musk is I remember someone asked him on Twitter, How does it feel to be the richest man in the world? I don’t know who is now, but at the time he was for at least a little bit and he’s like, I am.

00;39;07;16 – 00;39;11;22

Jon

I like like whatever his response was is like I had no idea. Like, that’s.

00;39;11;22 – 00;39;12;05

Aaron

Not why he’s.

00;39;12;05 – 00;39;28;10

Jon

Doing it. It’s another day. Let’s get to work. Right. Right. And what a great example of let’s focus on what we’re passionate about. Let’s focus on what we enjoy doing. Let’s focus on getting to what we enjoy doing, which is focus on getting better. And let’s live now and let’s find the good in the now as we deal with the ugly.

00;39;28;21 – 00;39;36;06

Jon

And let’s just keep going. You know, the two sexiest life hacks ever. Disappointing consistency, right?

00;39;36;06 – 00;39;38;10

Aaron

Thanks to the bad news slash good news, Jon.

00;39;38;15 – 00;39;59;03

Jon

So the fun takeaways from today. Loving labor, not leisure. Focus on the works. You’re not entitled to the fruit helps provide context to what the meaning of life can be should you choose to take it. And we give some some actual steps. Their own exploration on how to properly contextualize that pursuit and learning to love labor over leisure.