Episode 13 from The Grit Theory.

Today we met with Deb “The Debinator” Loewen. Our conversation explored her journey through motherhood and her 15 years of battling 3 separate rounds of cancer. Through the discussion we learn why her two favorite mantra’s (“Just Today” & “Not Your Story”) are powerful, and how they can apply to you. Highlights include:

– How holding onto a good thing can spoil it.
–  When “Vision Casting”, start with you.
– The journey through parenthood.
– The journey through not 1, not 2, but 3 forms of cancer.
– Continuing to live fully, despite tragedy.
– Declaring, “I Will Not Die!”
– Communicating through the challenge.
– Living for more than yourself.
– Embodying death. Engaging those in tragedy
– How normalcy can be medicinal.
– No escape from reality, it must be faced.
– Refusing to give into fear.
– Be careful what you choose to accept about yourself.
– Finding resolve when exhausted, tired & fatigued.
– Just be there.
– Choose carefully when to freak out.
– Do something good.

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Also, check out Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be waymakers HERE.

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The Book: Be Relentless: If the obstacle is the way, then we must be WayMakers.

The Podcast: “Be Relentless Podcast”

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Linktree: Here.

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Episode Transcript

00;00;03;11 – 00;00;19;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the grid theory, where we believe in facing difficulty head on. These are stories of inspiration. We applaud grit, tenacity, resilience, the struggle in the pursuit of better, more intentional lives.

00;00;23;25 – 00;00;47;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Well, hello, everyone. This is John Mayer, Aaron Robinson and Deb Anderson. My first act of resilience one, if you’re with us, the Mayo Clan said that’s a bit of a fine stretch as far as I mean, you’re a little bit crazy because you said that yourself. And then you’re also like last night, it’s 8:00 or about 20. The kids are down here.

00;00;47;06 – 00;01;12;29

Jon, Aaron & Deb

By the way, you want to wake up early tomorrow and record a session for the Good Mary. And she’s like, Sure, that sounds great. I’m sacred. We are. We’re constantly keeping our eyes up because we really are very intrigued by these stories. Like, honestly, this is like if John and I were the only person at the table for this and nobody was listening, that would be okay with us because the stories we’ve been getting, just because we’ve been interested in that.

00;01;13;02 – 00;01;32;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yeah, it’s amazing how and this is the same question for myself as well as other people out there, but there are stories all around us. If you just tell me more about that. Yes. And you have those this morning, a gentleman toss it to you. You just miss so much. If you don’t know, to stop and look for it, you know.

00;01;32;19 – 00;01;54;11

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I’m excited to see where the conversation goes and I’m sure we’ll have our search a good opening remarks. So any ideas that you just want to come out swinging with just now? Got whatever. You don’t seem like someone who’s had like a ton of difficulty. It hasn’t. One of your faces is smiling, cheering and I love it.

00;01;54;11 – 00;02;17;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I get that a lot, actually. I have a lot of people. They’re like, Oh, Demi, her life is just the testing. But, you know, I do. I do, actually. And then when they ask me like little pieces of them, like, you know, to go, well, actually. And then I share a snippet and then I really feel like I would never know that.

00;02;17;07 – 00;02;46;02

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’m like, awesome, cool. I think there’s something cool about that. And then I said, Jump in because if everyone can tell you’re going through hell with your life’s been hard. You’re not living right? Like you’re sending the wrong message. You know, we talked a while back about, oh, like if you’re in pain, smile to make it. But you need to be honest and forthright with your inner circle and with yourself through your own growing as compassionate human right.

00;02;46;02 – 00;03;05;20

Jon, Aaron & Deb

That’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying, though, is the whole world should not be able to know you’re going through hell or that your life’s been hard. That you should the heart of your life, the greater the opportunity to shine forth brightly. And I’m reminded of Frankl absolutely love it is that which is to give up wise light must in your burning.

00;03;07;11 – 00;03;31;29

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I think that’s kind of a fun segway into this going forward, right? So yeah, because the assumption is that like if you smile and everything is great, right? Maybe it is a light that has been forged in Fire Me, Right. That’s great. So the best way I think to introduce kind of the jump in is last night I pulled my life justification.

00;03;32;06 – 00;03;55;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Try ask is that can you guarantee guarantee do all this off tomorrow morning I’ll take advantage of the opportunity. And she looks at me and essentially yells at me. And so the woman. Right. Successfully raising her four children, all while battling three forms of cancer, successfully, and not to mention just the rest of the garbage. Yeah, I think she’s a good person to have.

00;03;56;01 – 00;04;25;05

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Because why? I want you to think you helped me while living in L.A.. Yeah, Just a whole nother level. And I’m so sorry. I mean, she. She was good for you. Yeah. So is that true, first of all? And you’ve already said yes. Absolutely. So I have four daughters. I love them all. Yeah, That’s a lot of emotions and things in my household.

00;04;25;13 – 00;04;50;00

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I mean, my husband would always say he was in the estrogen ocean. And I’m like, Yeah, he does. But, you know, he loves it. So but, you know, all of our girls are now grown. We literally just had the graduation a couple of weeks ago for our youngest who graduated from Mississippi State University. Congratulations. So, yeah, So you’re an empty nester now.

00;04;50;05 – 00;05;13;09

Jon, Aaron & Deb

We are into this year a new place to be, which is exciting. So I’m looking forward to that. So. So yeah. What does that feel like from a parent standpoint? That’s a lot of kids to raise as many, many years of being a mom. That doesn’t stop. I mean, you’re still you’re still you’re no longer. Yeah, you’re but you’re not like as on call or.

00;05;13;21 – 00;05;35;09

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Right. They’re not physically there all the time. It was a you know it is it is a weird feeling. In fact, when the two younger ones were like high school age, I saw it coming. So I kept looking at them going like that for years. And and that’s it. And then what am I going to do? Because, you know, you got four.

00;05;35;09 – 00;05;55;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And based on the age range, you know, that’s 25 years of my life that I’ve been homeschooling, being a mom, you know, taking them to synchro practice and everything else and going on competitions with them. And so I started seeing it coming in like, what am I going to do in my life? What am I going to do with my life?

00;05;55;06 – 00;06;26;13

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I was like, I have no idea. And like, I don’t know. I don’t know. And it’s really kind of scary, actually, because I’m like, What do I become? I mean, I’ve just spent 25 years doing all this pouring my life into these people to help them be good human beings. And, you know, be successful at life. And then, like, I don’t know, my hubby at one point said, so, you know, do you want to foster adopt?

00;06;26;13 – 00;06;44;13

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I thought for a brief moment went, No, I like, I don’t know what I want to start all over again. But I think there’s a part of you that goes, Oh, baby, that’s all I know. That’s the only thing I know. I mean, I, I’m pretty good at it. I mean, seemed eager to get at it, so maybe I should do that.

00;06;44;13 – 00;07;16;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So then I started trying to think, well, maybe I just need to do stuff like that. Maybe they just need to find something to feel that has to do with children and helping moms and all. And and every time I kept looking at that hearing and I kept going, know, So it’s almost like there was like, this is done and there’s something new and last I’m trying to think back in September September of last year, my older brother, I actually worked for him.

00;07;16;04 – 00;07;43;00

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Right. You invited me to Arizona and in Arizona we went through this program for it. He’s a he’s an attorney. So he’s trying to expand his business. There’s all these, you know, things that they’re doing, you know, help you understand your team and all of those kinds of things. So we went to this. This is not related, so what you call it, but we went to this event and it was just us.

00;07;43;00 – 00;08;03;26

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It was just our team. So it was me, him and his wife, because we’re like, just the team is a pretty small thing. And it was at that that the person that was leading it said, okay, so, you know, I just want you to imagine that you now have a canvas in front of you and you’re going to create your future.

00;08;04;03 – 00;08;25;23

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And we’re basically talking business at the time and you’re going to create your future and this is what you need to do. And I’m like, okay, so we’re creating this future for this company that I’m working for. All right. And then he did an interesting thing and he goes, But we’re not going to start with the company. We’re going to start with, you know what?

00;08;25;23 – 00;08;48;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I’m like, okay. And he said, So I want you to take all the things that you know, that you are that you’ve been that you’ve done all of who you think you are. And I want you to just put it over here, because oftentimes we know who we think we know we are. But I want you to imagine more anyway.

00;08;48;20 – 00;09;11;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Okay. So it was in the midst of that, that it was such a cool thing because I literally saw this picture of, you know, this portrait. And it was a beautiful painting. It had a house. I mean, you would have thought I mean, there’s just all these pieces to this beautiful portrait and I just hear this voice. You’re done.

00;09;12;04 – 00;09;34;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This portrait is done. Hang it on the wall. I’m giving you a new one. Let’s go. And I was like, okay, So I’m not even exactly sure what I was going to be on that new portrait, but it was just that moment. It’s going I don’t have to keep trying to add to what I’ve already done. I don’t need to try and reinvent it.

00;09;34;03 – 00;10;04;24

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’m not trying to do some, you know, a second edition. It’s I’ve got a brand new portrait that I’m going to be creating with my life. This one is beautiful, gorgeous. People can look at it and go, Wow, admire it. That’s awesome. So you got more. That’s a great word picture. Yeah. The the the the portrait analogy reminds me of, like, chapters or really like you just you just found the piece to say, you know, this first book stone and now I’m going to write the sequel.

00;10;05;03 – 00;10;25;25

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yes, right. The adventure continues in a new way, right? The first ones out. Right. And and what what I was listening to and thinking about, like with the question, the journey you guys were walking through, of opening it up there straight into that industry, you know, because I was good at it. How often do we try to clean do something because it’s familiar?

00;10;26;06 – 00;10;47;02

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Because we’re good at it? Yeah, because it’s not like that in something that is good turns sour because it was supposed to be a season, not a lifetime. Yes. And it’s like that’s just what I’m hearing here. It’s like, hey, even something as in-depth as parenting, you know, or which is a 25 year heavy investment. Right. Is a seat.

00;10;47;02 – 00;11;15;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s supposed to be a chapter. It’s supposed to be a set, a segment of as the primary focus, not a lifelong expenditure. Back in the days when I was speaking, I would the people that I kind of think take that is speaking with inevitability. What you do is you prepare something and you overprepare it and they would just send you any would deliver it and you get feedback on it and then they’d say you overcooked it.

00;11;16;04 – 00;11;38;11

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This is to have way too much on that. And there’s that. There’s a point where you kind of go, All right, walk away. There’s enough salt on that. She did a good job, right? Just walk away and let it be and put it on the wall. Great job. It’s beautiful. Now’s the time to start something. Yeah, it’s kind of a fun timing, too, because we’re in the transition period.

00;11;38;11 – 00;11;59;25

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So, yes, I mean, this was just over the last couple months. You just graduated of days ago. So it’s like right now we’re having a conversation on the tail end of one very great experience piece and you’re looking forward excited to see what the next. Yes. You know, that’s going to be and you all scary fuck. I’m like, well, how could the last 25 years fail?

00;12;00;14 – 00;12;24;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

While I seem to really like exciting question and what are the next 25 years? Right? Those are big, big forks in the roads and it’s so much better to be aware and like, imagine how much of a bummer it would be if you bound yourself to some commitment out of fear of change. Yes. And then you you weren’t able to experience what the next 25 years could be.

00;12;24;14 – 00;12;44;22

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yes. And then that that loss kind of poisons the positive. See? That’s right. So how cool is it that we get to talk in this timing right between the two and the back kind of export with you? Yes. Oh, what is last 25 years like? Right. What happened there? I love that. Use the sort of vision going into this.

00;12;44;23 – 00;13;07;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And as we get into it a little bit, what got you here? But I feel like maybe I learned along the way like vision through things because like, I see you, like even you thinking about this now, I can see that use seeing hope and I know this is going to be great, but yes, but it’s you’re kind of off balance, but you’re kind of between steps like, right.

00;13;07;07 – 00;13;26;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Am I going to be able to do this? But that’s kind of I think, a normal rhythm for people to do well at life. They just get used to being okay. I’m I’m uncomfortable with this, but I’m going to learn it. I’m going to say right, Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I know one of the big learning curves. Oh, my goodness.

00;13;26;07 – 00;13;47;26

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Was when I actually started working for my brother. I. I know nothing about what I do now because I’ve been with them for six years, but nothing about law at all whatsoever. So he needed help and we were in a transition where we were at at that time. And so I’m like, okay, so I, you know, I’ll come in.

00;13;48;02 – 00;14;10;24

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This can help you do things that I know I can do for you. Like you. I mean, as it sounds, I can, you know, make appointments, do all those kinds of things. And as time went on, he kept getting me more and more stuff. And he was like, okay, so, Debbie, I need you to take this cash. You want to see what your things are and you’re really good at this.

00;14;10;24 – 00;14;32;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I want you to now start doing document production. What does that mean? And then it’s like we have to learn this. And I’m like, I don’t even know what I’m doing. So I’m like, I will literally just like punching the numbers. I just like you fill out the form and I just follow the form. I just follow the form and then at one point he’s like, You really need to start reading this one.

00;14;32;13 – 00;14;47;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

What am I saying? I’m like, I don’t know what that is. That is not legal. Can I even do that? I don’t even know. And so I literally I know the documents. I can like, look at the documents and go, Oh, yeah, I know, I know what that means. Like, no, you can’t do that. Or yes, you can do that.

00;14;47;21 – 00;15;09;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

But in the middle of that, there were there were days that he would go in and meet the client and then the document production and the worst thing I hated was when I heard the snapping, the notebook click, click, and I went, What did I do? So I knew I mean, yeah. And I’m like, I made a mistake.

00;15;09;12 – 00;15;27;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And you come out hand it to me, and I’m like, I’m fixing it right now. So then I would listen to what he was doing inside the conference room because my office guy doesn’t like really? And I’d be like, What is he saying? Okay, oh, what did I do? And they’re like, okay, chase it really quick. So by the time he came out, I’m like, Here it is.

00;15;27;19 – 00;15;49;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I want to go to. She’s a So yeah, it was like so funny. And then there was I mean, there was like a couple of weeks and it was so bad. I mean, like every time you met with a client, it’s like and I remember the Friday that we left and he said, So we have you know, we have a team meeting on Monday and like, got it.

00;15;49;25 – 00;16;12;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I went home and I’m like, I know. And I’m like, okay, you know, I need to I need to resign. I need to like, write my resignation letter. It’s like I’m thinking, you’re my brother. The last thing I want you to do is be like, Great, I have to keep her cause she’s my sister. So I’m going to make it easy on you, and I’m just going to resign because I am not a really valuable person right now for the team.

00;16;12;10 – 00;16;34;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’m like, pulling more mistakes and more problems than I need to. And as a week and with on towards the end it was Sunday night there was just that sense and so on. So really going to quit that that’s what you’re going to do. You’re just and she was like, Well, I don’t know, but you know, figure it out.

00;16;34;25 – 00;16;56;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And it was just that just enough of a voice that it was like, yeah, I can’t I can’t do that. I have I have to figure this out. I can’t leave not knowing that I can’t do this. It’s like I got to figure it out. Once I figure it out, then I can leave. But I can’t leave and go, Yeah, I’m not good, so I’m out.

00;16;56;19 – 00;17;23;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And that Monday when we had the team meeting, he was like, So how are you doing? I go, Well, it was a rough weekend. Said had a resignation letter ready to hand you. And he’s like, Why? They go, Well, because I didn’t think I was the best person for this position. And he goes, So I changed and I go and that I have to I have to do this.

00;17;23;10 – 00;17;47;00

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You’re right. You do? Yeah. So. Yeah, well, at least you’re on the same page as I am. And he’s great because he just said Debbie. So you fail because both of you made those same mistakes. And I’m like, No, because. Right. Because failure and failure, you’re learning. Yeah. He goes, Yeah, we don’t like to do it. He goes, And I get it because I’m the kind of person like I would rather learn from somebody else’s failures than make my own.

00;17;47;13 – 00;18;06;05

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And he’s like, But you’re learning it. And I’m like, You’re right. And now it’s like, I’m his right hand prison. Like when he has that and he’s like, No, you just talk to them. You just make them. You just let him know. And I’m like, All right, So even in that period of time, just allow myself to be like, okay, I will overcome this.

00;18;06;05 – 00;18;23;09

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’ve got to learn this. I’ve got to figure this out. And him being gracious enough to go, yeah, you fail is not always going to be have you never be like, yeah, you fail. But he’s going to be like, All right, figure it out. Then we got it figured out. We can do this. And like, don’t don’t leave in failure.

00;18;23;12 – 00;18;43;21

Jon, Aaron & Deb

No jellied in the air, because that’s when you’re learning the most. That’s when you’re changing the most. That’s when you are really overcoming is in the middle of the failure. It’s interesting, you know, there’s the cliche is darkest before the dawn, Right. But but it’s true. It’s like you expect things to be a honeymoon the entire time and they give you the cards.

00;18;43;21 – 00;19;06;21

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And what are you going to throw in the towel? I love the condition of success, including yourself, as I will leave once I’m succeeding here. Yeah, I will not leave with this permanent failure in my mind weighing me down. So if you get knocked off course, get back on right this weekend. I was hoping Aaron, do some fencing on this property and we had 800 feet to do.

00;19;06;22 – 00;19;29;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

We knocked out in the morning, which was awesome. The very first time I’ve driven a 20 person bike, literally at least 2000. Yeah. Very comfortable with this house. 850 post. Not going to go into the details of how it happened. I did the analysis after it to figure out what I did wrong. Bottom line, I took the first driver on the third, hit it at the top of the post.

00;19;29;28 – 00;19;51;24

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I drained myself lines going everywhere. Definitely a concussion. So I think I remember a little bit you went down. Like I say, you got to stay down there. You didn’t know you got up. Yeah. So that to this point, yeah, yeah. You can see right or wrong why they continued the rest of the day because that was the first.

00;19;51;24 – 00;20;17;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Wow. My ground data, my foot of fencing. Yeah. Yeah. And we, and we joked about, you know, we all have that friend we, we regret asking to do a job because they’re just like, I’m going to be that guy. He’s a liability all time. He’s just overzealous the way I redeemed myself for the next 800 feet. But it’s fine because it’s what he did that literally was a blow to the head.

00;20;17;24 – 00;20;47;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You had to get back in, you know? Yeah. And sometimes there’s physical ones. You some ibuprofen bleeding that I was like, I just have this. Yeah. And wow, did you just get this old man? And he gave me a shirt, and like, for the next 3 hours, I had to keep wiping the place, but. And that’s kind of a fun aside, but it comes directly back to like, when you get face to propeller, whether it’s him had falling off a horse or more systemically your identities being read.

00;20;47;13 – 00;21;05;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This is a when you’re feeling something like a job regardless of if it’s t posts is that I was my pride something I was a very I was like I’m not the one time he’s asked me to help him with a project and to say, you know yes. So it’s like that’s a micro example of what you’re walking through.

00;21;05;03 – 00;21;28;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I actually remember having conversations around when that season, and it’s so cool because it’s like that’s part of your transition to like going into that type of job and going to that is going to be growth change. There’s going to be transitions, you know, and I think what I want to think about a friend right now that they’re going through a significant transition and it’s harder and they’re adjusting.

00;21;28;26 – 00;21;51;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

They’re chafing under the adjustments. And it’s like that’s expected. Like, I think that the why is that? It’s just going to be hunky dory right now. But the truth is. No, no, no. Like when you’re start to feel that friction and you’re feeling the weight of that, you don’t go back to what you came from push through to the promise of what can be in this new chapter, you know, and that’s so beautiful.

00;21;51;28 – 00;22;09;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I think that it’s and it’s exactly what happened there. Right. You guys had your your talk and you were able to push through and now you’re the right hand person for the company, right? You guys are crushing it. You gain the competency. You have the skill set, you’re happy with what you do. And it’s funny because I’ve done a lot of work with Jeff.

00;22;09;12 – 00;22;36;08

Jon, Aaron & Deb

He happens to be my father in law, and we built a very large farm together. He’s not a man. You want to mess up and know he cares. And compassion is very austere. So it’s like. Like a mistake is unforgivable. I’m sorry, I Now I’m fixing it. And just the look, it’s like, yeah, you are the worst human being that I have been seeing yet.

00;22;37;00 – 00;22;56;27

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Whether you’re putting a roof on an officer telling us like, we can do this, and it’s just like you don’t you just do it. And but I love you. What that type of personality calls out and you because you’re either going to be a loser and just become and I think every human question should have a and that’s another point.

00;22;57;05 – 00;23;20;22

Jon, Aaron & Deb

We’re going to rise to the challenge. And I see the same spark in you. And that’s why it’s fine. It’s like I’ll never forget I push back on something. We were having a conversation and just like off the cuff says it, I disagree because of this, it had just come back or, John, you were wrong. And this is why I got up and I just sat there and I was all angry.

00;23;20;22 – 00;23;39;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

But I was able to realize that’s my pride. That’s angry, because she’s clearly right as she just outlined a painful detail. So I just was like, I can see that you’re correct. And I retract my statement. And then I went and cooled off as, again, she’s right. And I’m like, no point in fighting it because I know I’m wrong.

00;23;39;06 – 00;24;00;13

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Your best. You’re you have a long history of addressing negative or incorrect information, right? You know, I you and you and you, you learn how to look at it and yeah. And even and even like you and your story, it’s it’s like I was ready to quit. I mean, I was ready to do the wrong sex. I good.

00;24;00;28 – 00;24;21;29

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Right? And that’s real, you know? Absolutely. I was. I really was. I made that. Oh, yeah. I slept on it in a couple of days. And. And you allowed yourself to come around to a lives. What’s the next step real quick? Because there’s two things that I think are important. One, the importance of taking a pause before making emotional decision yet, right.

00;24;21;29 – 00;24;39;29

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Like at first. Oh, man, I hate that you mentioned on Friday you do that. But that was like, yeah, that made it uncomfortable. But how good was that? Because you were able to process it for two days. There’s wisdom in that. Absolutely. It wasn’t meant to be comfortable. It was meant to invoke that discomfort so that you had to come to a conclusion.

00;24;40;03 – 00;25;09;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yes. And then the second thing is, you just mentioned, you know, you almost made the wrong choice. And I think that’s true. Right? Like it would have been the wrong choice. But when when we’re in the moment of processing through these life decisions, it’s not clear which choice is right and which ones. Yes, I would agree, because even in that moment, the only thing that I kept thinking out was not so much me as much as okay, but it’s about the team.

00;25;09;01 – 00;25;25;15

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s about I want you to be successful. And if I’m not the best person for you to be successful at what you’re doing and where you’re going, then I need to bow out then I know, right? Yeah. So it wasn’t even like, you know. Oh, for me, it was like, Oh my goodness, I don’t know what the right person for this job.

00;25;25;26 – 00;25;49;20

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So yeah. And to me that would have been clear is like, right, If you have the right person, not my skill set, you should find somebody else. I’ll bow out, I’ll find something else. And yet in that process there is still that. Okay, but what about you? That is. That’s the thing. Because when we get ourselves out of a situation, it’s going to be was we’re going to create a narrative that we can fill in, right?

00;25;49;26 – 00;26;06;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yes. So you’re like, this is the narrative that I’m getting. And then you can and you can get rid of the discomfort pretty quick by just saying, okay, I’ve made a decision. I think I we all want to do that. We all want to figure out what the solution is right away so we don’t have to wrestle with it.

00;26;07;07 – 00;26;22;26

Jon, Aaron & Deb

But you chose to be like, is that the right I mean, is that the conclusion I should come to? Right? And there was even a higher ideal that was even better than that narrative that you’re like, I see this, that I’m going to come, I am going to come to the end of myself, but I’m not I’m not going to let it take me.

00;26;22;26 – 00;26;47;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

All right. Yeah. And then and and now other people way have had way more positive effect because you made an internal decision to make yourself better and pushed that. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Okay. I want to ask you a question about the cancers that you walk saying kind of understand that better, but better to think about. How do I bring up the question?

00;26;47;22 – 00;27;07;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Because what I don’t want to do and this is something that I was going to say, what I don’t want to do more open and fair enough. Okay, Fair enough. What I really admire and like and appreciate about you is I don’t see any trace that the fact that you have survived in 43 forms of cancer, it’s not your identity.

00;27;08;14 – 00;27;28;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You know, it’s circumstances that you thought they were seasons that were things. They were fine, they were terrible. But there’s so many people I know who, God forbid, they have cancer or they’ve had some injury or divorce or something. And it’s like that defines them. It’s like the high school player has gone to see Jackie. He never takes the jacket off and they’re like 40 years old.

00;27;28;10 – 00;27;48;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So but I’m glad season was when it was right. But you know, it shouldn’t it defining to the point where that is the first piece of your identity. I see And so I really appreciate that that’s not you. So in asking this question, I’m not trying to paint like, Oh, you are the fact that you survived these cancers.

00;27;48;05 – 00;28;16;00

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I just admire the distinction that in spite of raising four children and everything else that you experienced in life, you also went through these incredibly challenging personal health issues that also have second, third and fourth order effects of family work, all these different things. So I just want to understand a little bit about what that looks like, that real world like timeline and type of the things that you have to fight for.

00;28;16;00 – 00;28;47;29

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And then also how, if at all, you think that shaped you to who you are today, And I’m not assuming it did I imagine it touched you in some form or fashion. You had to choose how you’re going to be. The difficulty. Yeah. How’s that? And that’s good. That’s a great question. So 2008, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and had to go through surgery.

00;28;48;01 – 00;29;13;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And since we had eight rounds of chemo and chemo was every three weeks. And in the process of that, I had, you know, the week that you have that I had chemo was pretty okay. By the time I get to the end of that week, the second week I had pretty much been quarantined because I had no interest whatsoever.

00;29;13;21 – 00;29;45;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I had to be quarantined for the next two weeks. And by week three I started feeling a little better. And then we started the process, I guess. So that was like my, you know, three week every three weeks kind of thing, homeschooling the girls During that time. My oldest, when I literally found out in April of 2008, my oldest daughter turned 16 just after I had had surgery.

00;29;46;07 – 00;30;11;21

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So we still celebrated her 16th birthday. I said, We are not going to not do this. We already had a plan. I said, You still need to be celebrated. What is happening with me is not going to deter us from doing that. So and and even going back to when we first had to tell the girls, when you get the news, you know, I got the phone call.

00;30;13;11 – 00;30;39;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Hi, Mrs. Long. Yes, it’s cancer. And you just going to go, okay. And so me and my husband and me said all of our girls down. They said so we talk to the doctor and they said, It’s cancer. And I look at all our faces and everybody’s just kind of like, Got that look like, How do I process this?

00;30;39;15 – 00;31;03;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Our youngest child was eight. And so, you know, she was a really Cher or actually she was seven. She’s going to be eight later that year. And our third daughter, Olivia, she was nine. She was the one who I think voiced when everybody wanted to say real because she looked at me while she looked at me and she had this look on her face and a girl.

00;31;04;00 – 00;31;35;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Olivia, what did you hear Mommy say? And she goes, It’s cancer. You’re going to die. Got it. So now Mommy’s not going to back to my to diagnose that cancer. So she would be a long road, but Mom’s not going to die. Now, I said that inside. I’m like, Oh, my God. They said cancer. And that is definitely a reality.

00;31;36;06 – 00;32;06;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And yet I just literally declared to my daughter, I’m not dying. I’m not dying. And the eight rounds of chemo that literally took this from April to November of that year, so literally almost the entire year was chemo. There is no skull still had to happen. So there were weeks that mom was like, here’s here’s the stuff that I needed to get done.

00;32;06;10 – 00;32;33;21

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And mom was like in my and my oldest daughter, she helped a lot with the younger ones to kind of pick up that. That was a really rough year for her. And it was towards the end of that year, it was in December. We had gone to my brother’s cabin and my chemo was all done. So I said, So that part was then, now is on the five, what I call the five year plan, where it’s like, you don’t have to take a chemo drug every day.

00;32;33;21 – 00;33;17;25

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s like you’re like, it’s a small business chemo with this for five years and you have to see the doctor once a month and all that. So like a five year plan. And I just remember being in Utah, we were all sitting around and talking and just going, okay, so where is everybody? How’s everybody doing? And it was so it was so good because literally probably the next 3 hours we just sat there and all of the girls for the first time were able to just talk about how they process through the last several months of seeing Mom going through all of that and just being able to have them share that was so good

00;33;17;25 – 00;33;32;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

because they kind of like held it in. It’s like like I have to be tough for mom. I can’t let Mom know that, you know, I’m I’m hurt and I’m angry and I’m frustrated and, you know, scared to death that, you know, what’s going to happen to their mom. Are they going to is mom going to be gone?

00;33;32;28 – 00;33;53;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I mean, you’re going to have a mom for the rest of my life. And just as a side note, yeah, we’ve talked about this before, when when you go through difficulty, don’t don’t think that you’re the only one. Right. Because what you’re going through is massive and it would be easy for you to go, hey, I’m the victim here, you guys.

00;33;53;20 – 00;34;11;17

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You know what you’re going through and just discount that, right? And but that went away saying press pass and go, Hey, how’s the team doing? Yes. How are we all doing with this information? Yes. Yeah. Which was so hard because, I mean, there would be times even in the middle that I would just kind of like, go, how are you doing?

00;34;11;17 – 00;34;33;27

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And, you know, I’ll be like, I’m okay, I’m okay. And like and I think a lot of it is. I remember and when my hair all fell out and it was a synchro competition that weekend and it was still my first round, I had just had my first round of chemo and I thought, okay, so my hair is still sane.

00;34;33;27 – 00;34;56;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I’m like, okay, you know, several amount, but we’re okay. So we went for that weekend. My doctor said, Yes, you can go. My levels are okay. He’s like, Absolutely. Clorox became my favorite friend because literally be Clorox everything I remember lenses saved me for my birthday that year, Lysol and Clorox wipes and I’m like, yes, this is the best gift ever.

00;34;57;25 – 00;35;19;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And we had gone. So Jeff had taken the two older girls because they were the ones competing to the events using to come back and get us. And so I took a shower and literally as a taking a shower, my hair all falls out. It’s like and I the girls, the two older girls, said, Mom, I don’t want you to shave your.

00;35;19;19 – 00;35;42;14

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Head closes the shape and has to go. Okay. So they’re like, We don’t want you to shake your head until after this competition. Got it. And I’m like, Well, how can I pay you back all? I’m like, Oh, great. So, you know, why have you had a bandana? I’ve got a bandana on my head, put my hat on, and my two younger girls and like, okay, this one’s, you know, my hair is falling out.

00;35;42;19 – 00;36;02;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And they’re like, okay, all right. So the two younger ones or whatever, you know, they like they were fine. And I remember walking out of the school and I made eye contact with them because they’re like, because mom was always there was always like, I always tell them, I am your biggest fan. I am your biggest coach, your biggest fan.

00;36;03;02 – 00;36;25;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And we made eye contact and they looked at me and they immediately could tell Mom’s got a bandanna on her. That’s not what Mom does. And they went and they they looked at their coach and they walked off the deck of the pool. So their coach had to get him because I thought, I’m not going to go talk to them right now because they need to be in competition with coach.

00;36;25;12 – 00;36;55;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’ll handle it. They swam, they did great. But it was later that night. I said, okay, so let’s talk. How are you? And they’re like, Mom, you use them. I go, You’re right. I did. I said I had and I couldn’t do anything about it. It just came out and I said, You know what? Pasted up and just seeing the anger and recognizing the anger, they were angry at me.

00;36;55;01 – 00;37;18;23

Jon, Aaron & Deb

They were angry at the situation. They were angry. The fact of really being afraid, that was really the bottom line. Afraid because like now cancer is real because before then it’s like mom seemed good. She was like, you know, doing stuff and still around her hair was still in and all of that. But now it became real. Now it’s like there’s no coming back from this.

00;37;18;23 – 00;37;36;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s like, now we have no choice. We have to go through this. And again, just look at them, doesn’t go, We’re going to make it. And I said, We’re going to make it. Is it? You’re right. It’s going to be long. It’s going to be hard. But we can do this because it’s getting worse from a visual standpoint, right?

00;37;36;20 – 00;37;58;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yeah. Feel like you’re winning. Feels like you’re going the other way. Right? Exactly. I mean, even walk, like, halfway through my younger brother, he came over and saw me and he’s like, How are you? And I’m like, Good. And she later, after I’d gone through everything, he goes, I remember walking in and seeing you and went, Oh My goodness, you look horrible, because I didn’t see that.

00;38;00;06 – 00;38;21;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

He goes, But he’s like, You guys scare me because he goes, I can see you. He goes, I, you’re still smiling like, Yeah. And I’m thinking, Really? Because that’s good. Because no, he goes, You not look good. So I think, you know, it definitely became a reality for me because, you know, I don’t have to look at my face all day.

00;38;21;07 – 00;38;43;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You know, they’re the ones that have to look at me. But what do you do to me? I’m thinking, especially from a female perspective, like losing your hair, you know, that’s like, you know. Yeah, Yeah. John Well, I was going to say that because it’s a complete identity attack, right? Because that’s what I heard. Yes. Yeah, right. You already lost part of your body, right?

00;38;43;21 – 00;39;07;21

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And then your hair. Yes. So it’s like you’re sitting there stripped away, essentially. And the only thing I heard is that the decision to fight for your kids. Right. I’m not going. Yeah. Is it is it just that simple? I mean, did you have. Yeah. What was the driving piece of that like where their days were just like, I don’t think I could do this.

00;39;08;10 – 00;39;25;15

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And how does you rally? Yeah, I think that there definitely were days like that. I think even at the very, very beginning, when we met with the surgeon, he gave me an option. He said, you know, you said to me, you can have a lumpectomy, it’s up to you. If I did a lumpectomy, he goes, You know, you would probably have to do radiation, too.

00;39;25;25 – 00;39;43;20

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So, you know, that would just be more and all that kind of stuff. And we actually ended up getting the second opinion. Second opinion was like, you know, pretty much the same kind of thing. So the day that I met with the surgeon for the last time just before the surgery, he’s like, you know, tell me what you want to do.

00;39;44;01 – 00;39;59;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And and we were walking out and the nurse goes, okay, so I want a special surgery. What you want to do to go, just take it off. And I mean, it was I didn’t even think about it. Just like, well, my answer is just take it. I can live without it. And then I paused because my husband’s giving me my weight.

00;39;59;07 – 00;40;19;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I go, Honey, are you okay with that? And like, I just like making decisions right now. He’s like, Babe. He goes, Absolutely, because I’m not going to love you any less. I’m like, Okay, just want to make sure I go, Yeah, just do it. Because I think my thought was it doesn’t that does not in any way, shape or form define me.

00;40;19;15 – 00;40;38;25

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s like, okay, so, you know, part of me is taken away, but that’s not who I am. And I would rather get rid of it and be able to stay here and be a survivor and be with my kids and my family and go, let’s live life than to go, oh, no, I need to keep this in mind.

00;40;39;16 – 00;40;59;20

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And now it’s like, get rid of it. Go. Let’s move on. Yeah. And so that was that was my feeling, stepping into the whole entire thing. And then, you know, in the process, when you do lose your hair, I literally lost my hair on my birthday. It was a really happy birthday to me. So at the competition, yeah.

00;40;59;20 – 00;41;24;22

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Michelle I never thought everything great. Well and I know well is that like when you just melt like it’s raining and then it’s hailing and then. And then, you know, there’s a fire, and then it’s like, really? Right. Good. Anywhere. So mysteriously, it was like, okay, yeah. Oh, absolutely. You know, And my sister in law, she was great.

00;41;24;22 – 00;41;45;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

She’s like, I want to take you. Let’s go get some wigs and stuff. And I’m like, Cool. So and that was just really neat moment with her. She’s like, you know, you can be anywhere you want. You can be blond, redhead, do something cool with it. I know. So we it was fun because the workplace took a ton of pictures with some crazy hairstyles is great.

00;41;45;03 – 00;42;09;02

Jon, Aaron & Deb

One hand was like green hair. It was fun. And so we just, you know, had fun with it. But I found that I really like where I was, like, more comfortable wearing a bandana. And it was interesting because when you would go out, people would like look at you kind of like, you know, you got the plague. And I’m like, you know, well, clearly you don’t know.

00;42;09;08 – 00;42;29;13

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You don’t know my story. That’s okay. But this is this is who I am dealing with, like over sympathetic people or something. Right? Right. Well, you know, here’s what’s really interesting. People don’t like to talk about it. Oh, people did not like to talk about. It’s like they were scared of it. It was almost like, you know, oh, my goodness.

00;42;29;21 – 00;42;57;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Listen, I’m talking about it because it’s almost like you are embodying death and people don’t want to deal with it. That’s an interesting perspective. Yeah. Huh. So people have a tendency really not to be able to land in difficulty. You know, it’s too hard for their mind. Right, to broach the subject. Absolutely. So even when I would just wear a bandana, there would be even, you know, like we’d go to functions or whatever that I could actually attend.

00;42;57;22 – 00;43;17;05

Jon, Aaron & Deb

People would be there, you know, they kind of just be a little distant and just like, you know, hi. They never they kind of asked how you were, but they didn’t really want to know how you were and what did you want? Like, you know, why would you want someone to say to you? And really, I just wanted somebody to look at me, go and just hug me and go, You know what?

00;43;17;21 – 00;43;40;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You just need to know I’m here and I want it easy. Yeah, it’s really easy. I don’t need some pat answer about me. You know, you’re going to be okay. It’s going to be fine. I was already doing all of those things in my head. You know, I don’t need you to just be like, pat me on the back and just really authentically you looking at me and going, Wow, that sucks.

00;43;41;24 – 00;44;07;25

Jon, Aaron & Deb

But you just need to know we’re right here with you. How can I help? Yeah, what can. What can I do for you? A little bit of normalcy. Yes. Yes. And it’s interesting how people just it scares them. It really does. It’s amazing in such an isolated event. Right. Normalcy can be noticeable. Yes. And like we’re seeing that now on a societal scale.

00;44;07;28 – 00;44;27;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I used to go and have a meal with friends. It’s like so life getting so rejuvenated, right? Yeah. You’ve been isolated. And and in the same case here is that all I needed is one of my friends. So I differentiate. Right, right, right, right. That’s all you need. Okay. I know. You know, we all know that these things happen.

00;44;27;17 – 00;44;53;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Don’t get weird. Okay? Then go get a burger. Yeah, Yeah, right, right, exactly, exactly. I think one of the other things in the middle of it, the voices in your head, you you just have a lot of things going on in your head in the middle of it, because at least me going through cancer, it was very isolate eating because my immune system was going up and down all the time.

00;44;53;12 – 00;45;19;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

There were times where I can even be with the girls. So, you know, with me in my room with like Clorox, like, and my air purifier, and they could wave to me from the door and kind of go, Hey, mom, you know, my really bad weeks and so on. The times that I was able to be with them, I remember going to be able to take them to a practice one time and it was outside.

00;45;19;14 – 00;45;55;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So it was one of my good weeks. My immune system was up and I was there’s a couple of other moms on the back of the pool, but I kind of set them apart, not because I didn’t want to, but the whole thing. Oh yeah, Now I kind of like some of this and just sitting there in the pool, the girls are almost starting to get to practice and all of a sudden all of these things that go under their heads and their coach had her mom had lost she had lost her mom with breast cancer.

00;45;55;27 – 00;46;20;11

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And there were four of her. I mean, she had three sisters, so therefore daughters. So, you know, the voices in your head, it’s like, well, what a coach. Karen. She lost her mom and her four daughters. And I’m like, okay, it was well, and we are the friends. If went through chemo and she did all the stuff and, you know, she only lasted another three years.

00;46;21;09 – 00;46;42;14

Jon, Aaron & Deb

All of a sudden all of these and during the time that I was going through cancer, several other people that we knew about that were battling cancer and they lost the fight. And all of them are going through my head. Going through my head. That makes you different. Oh, my goodness. Yes. Yes. Like, you know, you get the same things.

00;46;42;14 – 00;47;04;05

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Like what makes you think you’re going to come out of this a lot is like, no way, this is it. This is how it’s going to go. And fighting, you know, trying to find all of the little nuggets of things. It’s like, no, I am not going to give in to fear. I eat it, trying to like, do all of those things, quote all those verses that I know and and nothing is working.

00;47;04;19 – 00;47;27;25

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I mean, the battle inside me, I was I kept looking at the girls going, you cannot get out of the pool fast enough because mama is not going to lose it here on the deck in the pool. I will lose it on the way home. And I mean, it was it was brutal and like I said, everything I was coming up with, it’s like the battle of my mind was just fierce.

00;47;27;26 – 00;47;58;09

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It was even just getting worse and worse. It was just more of that’s not does I know what’s going down? Look at them, look at them, look at them. And finally, there is just this still small voice that said not your story. And I can’t even begin to tell you how like a massive like wave just went and wiped all of those other voices out.

00;47;59;08 – 00;48;21;17

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I went, not my story. That’s not my story. And literally that became my mantra for the rest of the time, not my story, because it comes up. I mean, there would be other times when we come up, it’s like and I would go nice, Stop telling me about somebody else’s story because that’s not mine. That’s not mine.

00;48;22;12 – 00;48;45;05

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yeah, that is it. I hear that all the time. To think that some people I think well-meaning people want to impute some story on you and go, Hey, this is what could happen. This is what I think should happen. And you’re the the simple fact is, this is my story and it’s only my story and it’s not a derivative of somebody else’s.

00;48;45;05 – 00;49;04;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s not going to be the same as somebody else’s. It’s mine. Right. And you just kept saying that my story started and I think trying to make it something, it’s not exactly, exactly. I’m not going to buy into that. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a beautiful difference in that. Yeah. And, and I think about this a lot. You have to be so careful on the identity.

00;49;04;16 – 00;49;28;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You’re going to choose to accept for yourself and even the small things like if you’re going through a transition, it’s going to be rough, You don’t challenge you, you don’t say, I’m going to be depressed for this. Oh, I know I’m going to be depressed. I know I’m going to get this. Yeah, but that that would be the equivalent of you in that moment saying, I’m probably going to die from this right this second.

00;49;28;16 – 00;49;48;14

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You choose to accept that it becomes it starts moving towards reality and instead saying, you know, this is my story. That is not my story. This is what I will do and that will not affect my outcome. Right? It’s the defines if like this is going to be hard, but I’m going to overcome it. Yes, right. But oh, that challenge.

00;49;48;28 – 00;50;06;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yeah, I may battle depression, but I’m going to fight through that challenge and see how quick and get to the other side of the thing. And I’m not going to choose to accept these terrible consequences for myself. I am willing, but what comes will come and overcome it. But that’s my story. You know, it will be one to overcome.

00;50;07;00 – 00;50;32;17

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It will not be one of accepting the negative. And in that power of choice, you know, what’s interesting is I kind of hear a change in mentality at first. The choice of I’m not going anywhere was for your children. Yes. And then on the deck of the pool, I think were driving home. But in that moment when you’re going through this crisis, it’s like my doing this for someone else is no longer enough.

00;50;32;27 – 00;50;58;11

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And you go, right, Why I fighting. And in that moment it was the peace and truth of you are not condemned to what is around you. You have your own journey to walk through and therefore walk it right in the whole, you know, tied up in that your story is so beautiful and powerful, you know, and when you accepted that truth, you know, you became free.

00;50;58;25 – 00;51;27;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yeah. And, and, and that’s the thing that the louder when you start battle fear, it gets louder to the point that it will overwhelming right before it breaks. Yes. And if you can just persevere not accept it then whatever. As small, simple, unsexy truths comes through, it just abolishes all the shouting and yeah, yeah. As we just walk through that experience.

00;51;27;04 – 00;51;55;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And that is so encouraging because it’s like just, you know, it’s it’s not gorgeous, right? But it is life giving, trajectory changing and world shifting, you know? Yes, it’s it’s universal that encourages me. It’s a terror. It’s a terrible truth. But the fact that when you’re going through something, the voices is getting, they’re getting louder and they’re getting more evil.

00;51;55;19 – 00;52;21;09

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Oh, yes. That your old, old stuff, you’ve kind of overcome like I got muscles for you. You can’t say you can’t say that little, right? It’s like, oh, you know, you didn’t look pretty today. And it’s like, Oh, yeah, I’ve heard it. I’ve already overcome that, right? In some ways it’s going to get louder. And I went within or whatever is happening, but to the point where it’s getting really bad, it’s like you’re you will die and like declaratively write back.

00;52;21;13 – 00;52;46;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

No, not my story. Like writing louder as it’s getting louder, I’m going to get louder, right? Yes, absolutely. What’s really strong that that was it. When you heard that when you heard that and accepted it. Not my story. That wasn’t the end of it. No. That just gave you the tool. Continue. Yes. Yes, yes. Because all of the tools that I had had up to that point, I mean, they were effective.

00;52;46;01 – 00;53;06;20

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And then you hit that point and then it’s like, sorry, know, these tools are now going to work anymore. But that was the animal that I needed. That was the piece that I needed because from that point on, it’s like game over. Yeah, yeah. You can have peace in the storm. Yes, you can smile even before you get the good news that cancer’s gone.

00;53;07;03 – 00;53;40;05

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Right? Right, exactly. Yeah. And even when Because, you know, then there was two more times after that. And even when it came back the second time, it was five years later. And I was all exactly like, I am at the side of your point. And I’m like, okay, so there’s an issue and I’m like, about the celebration. I, I think it was when I looked at my oncologist knew when I met the five year mark, because I know how much I know, but this is like game changer.

00;53;40;05 – 00;54;00;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This is like and now and he’s like, I know, cancel the cake. Everybody was like, And now we’re going to go back to square one. I went, Oh my goodness. It goes, What does this mean? So I meant another surgery. So I had to have another major surgery because it was all contained. Was it broke? It was the same type of.

00;54;00;25 – 00;54;23;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

No, you know, it was. So I actually had. What did they have? I had uterine cancer. So because of the tamoxifen that I was taking, that was one of the side effects. So one of the side effects is bummer, right? Yeah, right. But the other but if you don’t take the most often, the other side effect is death.

00;54;23;12 – 00;54;48;11

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I just. Another surgery. Okay. I think you must go with another surgery if needed. But you know, again they, they don’t necessarily guarantee it. It’s like it might happen. It’s possible. Well, I was like apparently I got the lotto and got that one, so and then I had to have a complete hysterectomy because it was still contained and it caught it early enough.

00;54;48;26 – 00;55;14;26

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I didn’t have to do chemo or radiation at the time. Exciting. So yeah. So I was like, okay, so it’s just a surgery. So I had to go to the surgery, which is great. But even at the beginning of that, it was just again going, okay, that whole it’s not my story. And just because, you know, we knew that this was a possibility, so we knew that this was possible as far as the game plan and all of that.

00;55;14;26 – 00;55;42;14

Jon, Aaron & Deb

But it’s like, in fact, my oncologist looking to you guys goes, Debbie, now that we’ve done this, we’ve taken out all of the issues. So now there are no issues of involvement at all. We’ve removed them. I’m like, yes, five years later and three right now. I know. And I was actually at the point where I was only seeing my oncologist like every six months, which is fantastic.

00;55;42;14 – 00;56;06;13

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And so I said, okay, so weird kind of thing. I said, You know, I’ve got some spotting going on and I’m thinking, I got no equipment. So it like because so what’s happening is I need you to go see your ob gyn. And I got it. So he’s like, w we sent you to specialists. You guys just looked like, you know, there might be some lesions or something.

00;56;06;13 – 00;56;26;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’m like, Okay, So I wasn’t too concerned. I’m like, All right. Because, you know, there’s been a lot happening with my body. Like, okay, no big deal to all the girls. I go, I’m not worried. I’m not concerned. So I went and saw my new oncologist now. And so this was in 2018. So this is just a few years ago.

00;56;26;20 – 00;56;47;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And so he asked me a bunch of questions. I was still taking Tamoxifen. He’s like, Why are you still doing that? Because I don’t need to do I’m just doing what people are telling me to do, you know? And he takes me out and he’s like, he literally I mean, literally within 24 hours he’s like, okay, we’re going to do this or you to come in, We’re going to do a biopsy.

00;56;47;21 – 00;57;09;23

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And he’s like, It’s cancer. And like, you know, I’ve done the biopsy. You don’t know, you know, So like literally and we didn’t get results for a whole entire week. So the whole entire week was like, you know, there’s again, that wrestling point is I have cancer. Do I not? Are you kidding me? I like and it’s exhausting.

00;57;09;23 – 00;57;29;08

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It it’s ten years of this, right? Right. Ten years because I’m like as I should be and the ten year mark going through parties. LEMON Happy? Yeah. Now, that was nice. And so I’m like, is this going to be a five year thing? Because I don’t know that I really want to have a five year every five year program happening.

00;57;29;16 – 00;57;50;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I’m over that. And so that whole entire week was a battle. It’s like I’d be good. And then usually is in the morning when it’s like quiet, like, you know, you’re just waking up. So, you know, you don’t have a bunch of things going through your head yet. And then, you know, there’d be the So I can tell you can do that.

00;57;51;10 – 00;58;14;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And finding the wrestling point of going, I don’t know. I mean, okay, yes, can we do it? But now getting just tired of having to do this. But I have to somehow find it in me to like, move forward insurance there. I will find it. But just, you know, but maybe it’s not, but maybe it’s not, because, you know, we haven’t done the biopsy.

00;58;14;06 – 00;58;37;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I mean, I said it was, but, you know, I don’t know. You can be wrong, you know, So kind of hoping for hope that he’ll be coming back and going Now, it’s not what I was wrong kind of thing. And it was probably two days before I actually went and saw him. It was in the morning getting ready, headed to work and again, just wrestling with the is it cancer?

00;58;37;23 – 00;59;03;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Not cancer. You know, it just I just want to know and just heard the whisper. What do you believe? And I’m like, well, I want to believe that it’s not just that I want to believe and you know, just sound God telling you to believe me. You’re going to believe the doctors and like, Yeah, but they’re pretty positive.

00;59;04;09 – 00;59;29;00

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So not that I don’t want to believe you. Okay, But anything you can believe. And I sat there that I would sit there looking in the mirror that morning and I just looked at myself in the mirror, got into the media, and she’s with you. And two days later was the doctor’s office. And he’s like, So it’s cancer.

00;59;29;04 – 00;59;51;09

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I made a face. And he goes, What does that face? And I go, Well, I told you, last weekend’s cancer. Did you not believe me? Well, no, not really. I read. And the interesting thing is it didn’t it didn’t shake my decision that that makes it easier. I got to choose. Believe you. Because if anything, it was like.

00;59;51;11 – 01;00;18;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Because when I choose to believe you, I’m choosing more life. Which means this is not the end of the story. There’s still more. So. Got it. I got to go through this, but this is something that the story of my doctor, because even my doctor, when he came in and just after he said it’s cancer and we had a quick little what he looked at me in the eyes and he said, I’m going to cure you.

01;00;18;29 – 01;00;46;24

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I’m like, I believe it is. This is this is not going to be the end because we are going to have a very long relationship. We like to plan and plan on it. So he’s like, good, okay. So I had another surgery again in the seventh. How did you. Radiation. Radiation, He said because of being still in, you know, it was endometrial.

01;00;46;24 – 01;01;04;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So even though they had taken those parts, somehow they had come back. They’re not really sure, other than they think it was, because I was filling in for months and so had DNA tested, a bunch of other stuff. He was great. All of it came back. He’s like, No, I’m pretty sure it’s because they kept you on this medication, which you’ve never done.

01;01;04;10 – 01;01;28;22

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And like, really like God even told somebody that I wouldn’t have some. That’s not right. Hello? Who’s checking? Should I check the notes? I don’t know. So, you know, in round three, he’s like, But you guys, radiation should be really simple. Like, you know, three, you’re done. And I’m like, Really? He’s like, Yeah, because I don’t think it’s going to be that big a deal.

01;01;29;02 – 01;01;50;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

They had a whole team of people because I’m sending you to his best radiologist, like, awesome. So I go and see him, meet him, and he’s like this and he’s great too. He’s like, Text me. He’s like, I’m thinking three now and turns over and he’s like, Okay, so then we just want you to know it’s not going to be three anything less.

01;01;52;13 – 01;02;20;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And he’s like, So because of the fact that it didn’t have clear margins because apparently when they did remove the cancerous tissue, it was literally falling apart. So they couldn’t even keep it together. So they couldn’t tell exactly what part was the margin area and not so because I don’t have the margins. So I can’t do the three rounds we’re going to see you guys since were going to have to do this.

01;02;20;04 – 01;02;48;11

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And he said, and so it’s going to be 25, 30, 23, 25. Well, yeah. And again, I don’t know what is up with that. It was my birthday. You not forget when it’s your birthday, right. Is November this day. Right. It says one thing ever. You know, I never did you actually do I mean to do right is crazy.

01;02;49;01 – 01;03;13;03

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I just remember going home and my sister in law to come with me because she’s she’s an alien. So she knew I understood all the technical terms. And so I usually took her with me to the appointment so that way she could like kind of explain it to me. And half the time you’re sitting there in the doctor’s office and there’s just so much information and you’re just trying to just process just the general, Oh my goodness, what are we going to do?

01;03;13;29 – 01;03;38;00

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So it was great having her there. And she’s like, So how are you doing? And I’m like, Not good. He’s like, Got it. And she was great because she was like, You’re talk about it, you don’t have to. She goes, I’m just here. I’m like, okay. And I remember my hubby picked me up from her house and was supposed to go out for my birthday that night.

01;03;38;15 – 01;04;03;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I remember going down to go pick up our youngest daughter and we’re talking while he was talking in the car. I wasn’t. I was still trying to process and he was in doing the whole pep talk, babe. And finally I went, Shut up. And he’s like, when I go, I do not need you to pep talk to me right now.

01;04;04;03 – 01;04;18;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I said, I do not need you to be like, It’s going to be okay and we’re going to get through it. I go, I don’t need that. I said, I just need you to up. If anything, I need you to go. You know what? I’m so sorry. That sucks. Because you know what it really does? Because I’m thinking I had three and I got 25.

01;04;20;00 – 01;04;43;14

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’m not handling that really well right now. And this. This is like, okay, so there’s like, going to be like, are you going to be fine? But right now I am not okay. And you just need to let me process through this so that I can be okay and you know that I’m okay. But right now I am not okay with this.

01;04;43;14 – 01;05;07;02

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I am really having a hard time because I got it. So take a couple of days and I’m like, I haven’t lost my mind. I haven’t lost my faith. I have it, you know, stop believing that everything is going to be okay. So just to make you feel better, you know, I haven’t like, fallen off the deep end, but I’m still I got to figure this out because this was not the game plan.

01;05;07;02 – 01;05;28;26

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s like being angry. Yes. Oh, I got so angry. Yeah, so angry. You guys, we can be simple creatures and just want to fix it really quick. And yes, I know what you need is just to change your mind about everything right now. And then I’ll be more comfortable for all of us, right? Yeah. Because we don’t like the uncomfortability of it.

01;05;29;07 – 01;05;55;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

We don’t. I really believe that’s a human thing. It is, right? You know, there’s a lot of things that I think we see cleaner examples of guys, but it’s like when you walk through trash with people, you know, it’s when you whether it’s to ABC guys, it’s really, in my opinion you’re both the go to and experience. She is trying for conviction yes.

01;05;55;18 – 01;06;20;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And really you just need someone to go through the storm with you go see the fight with you. Yeah I heard this really cool quote. I can’t remember who it’s from. Some speaker, but it’s a hey, when I’m going through winter and you’re in spring, don’t bring your sunshine to me right now. Is this really interesting? Is like, if I’m going through hell, come sit with me, walk with me, be with me.

01;06;20;25 – 01;06;42;27

Jon, Aaron & Deb

But I don’t need your sun shining perspective because you’re in a good season right now. I need it. Don’t want it right here with me. And I’ve had the opportunity, right? I obviously they deal with not to be having this up. Okay. I’ve had the opportunity to walk through some pretty dark times with some people, and I wish I had learned that earlier because I would have been a better service to those people.

01;06;43;00 – 01;07;03;02

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Right. Instead of trying get well, this is how we can get to fix it, we’ll figure it out. But that never helped them and it’s become painstakingly aware as time has gone on. So what has been appreciated and what does seem to actually move the needle significantly is is showing up in just doing something, not just being content.

01;07;03;03 – 01;07;20;01

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You don’t have to talk about it. We can focus on something else, know whether that’s I help clean up your house or we do the work out, or go for a walk, or we just eat a meal together. It doesn’t. It’s because the fight and the power is in the individual and there’s nothing anyone can do to ultimately change that.

01;07;20;15 – 01;07;46;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So it’s just a matter of allowing enough weight to lift just long enough for the person to get a single breath. Yes. And that can change everything. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. They have. You did a really good job later after we got through that debacle. These are he’s never gone through, you know, you know, in all fairness, of all everybody, he’s never had to walk this kind of journey before.

01;07;46;13 – 01;08;18;27

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This is all learning on the job, right? I understand, Right? Yeah. So, yes, I think to even early process his own freak out. Yeah. Oh, here we go again. Yeah. Okay. We can get through this. This is probably for him as much as I. Right. We have done this before. We could do it again. Right? Exactly. And and interestingly enough, it ended up being 35 rounds of radiation instead of 25, and it was every morning for seven weeks, 5 a.m..

01;08;19;19 – 01;08;46;27

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I get up at five in the way. Happy with him, with me. He’d drive me to radiation and I get my radiation and then I go to work and, can’t work. And it wasn’t until about week six and I’m there doing the radiation and my technician was asking me some questions. You know, we’re just chitchatting because, you know, now we’re on a first name basis, I think, like every day.

01;08;47;14 – 01;09;04;15

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yeah. And so he’s like, So what do you do know? Well, I work for my brother. You know, he’s an attorney and he’s like, So are you still working? Oh, I’m sorry. You’re still working. And I go, and then I’m like, I’m not supposed to be working. Is there is there like, a thing that you’re only supposed to work?

01;09;04;18 – 01;09;26;11

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You’re not supposed to work. You know, it’s like nobody gave me that memo, And he’s like, I go, Yeah, And he’s like, Well, how do you feel to go find any? And going to work can make work done and then go home? I might be a little tired, you know, And he’s like, wow. And they go, okay, I’m confused.

01;09;26;12 – 01;09;46;14

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And he said, Debbie, he goes, I don’t know anybody who goes to radiation and keeps working what it is. Yeah. Usually within the second week of radiation he goes, Because it takes such a toll on your body. He goes, You’re so exhausted and so tired. He goes, I don’t know. People who continue working is I’m surprised that you were still working because this is like week six.

01;09;48;04 – 01;10;09;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Wow. I didn’t know that. Cause there’s a part of me later. I’m like, Wow, I got to, like, not work this whole entire time. I’ve been fabulous. But I don’t think that we all have listened. But I do think that I don’t think that would have been the best thing for me to know, because it was that point.

01;10;09;18 – 01;10;30;20

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Every day it’s like my hubby and I, we would come up with the saying and then when I couldn’t say it, he’d say it for me. He’s like, just anything just today or just do it today. We’re just we’re just getting up right now. We’re just doing radiation today. In fact, we had a calendar that we would like mark off because it use the calendar.

01;10;31;05 – 01;10;53;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And he goes, Oh, look at the end of days because it’s just today, all we’re doing is just being like, okay, just today or just doing today. That mindset has proven useful and so many hard, hard things. You hear that all the time For people who survived and gone through trials. It’s just they just the next 60 seconds.

01;10;53;09 – 01;11;21;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yes, right. Like sometimes it’s so bad. I just need to make one more step over and over and over again. But you hear that from survivors at the time death march. And this is literally just one section of the data. And then another step, one more minute. You know, sometimes it has to be broken down that small. But it’s interesting because listening to you, I realize that it’s kind of an evolution through maturation of your statement, not your story.

01;11;22;03 – 01;11;43;21

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It started as a battle cry. Hope you know, no, I will not accept this year. Will not accept. It’s not my story. Mommy’s not going to die right there. Yeah, mine was not going to die to. It’s not my story. But over the years because years now it’s not my story. It pounds into such a part of your being that you’re not even looking around to see what other people do in your situation.

01;11;44;04 – 01;12;03;00

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I just gone on six weeks in working in social work, right? Oh, I’m really looking to others as a guidepost of what I should be doing under these circumstances. And it seems to me. Yes. And there’s a freedom to me, there’s a maturity to that. There’s a of the concept. It’s come to fully. It’s grown up. Right.

01;12;03;03 – 01;12;23;18

Jon, Aaron & Deb

The idea went from like, okay, it’s keeping me going to not paying attention to the stories around me and allowing that to dilute what I ought to do. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. And you know, and not getting like trying this to cheat by looking into a crystal ball for the future, like, where is this going to go and what is the end of my story?

01;12;23;19 – 01;12;41;05

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So I could feel better now right? It’s like, no, I’m just going to go to the drudge of today. Like today is all that matters right now because I want to do this. Well, yes. I don’t know what tomorrow is, right? Could be good. Could be bad either way. Does that help me right now? Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

01;12;41;13 – 01;13;10;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And even when I got to the end, I just know my radiologist said to me, Go study. I am amazed because I’m amazed that he goes, I gave it because I gave you general rounds. He said, Because you were doing so good when you hit 20 egos, then I’m going to like keep going because I want this thing gone and I go, okay, now I have been telling you that, but at the same time, a lot of me didn’t because then I would have been all over that.

01;13;10;19 – 01;13;27;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And they want to know what really is going to happen. Don’t know. You really don’t. And so I you know, there is a part of me of like, oh, did you give me that many? Because maybe they were effective because I wasn’t really I mean, I was tired. There were definitely side effects. I had a lot of side effects from it.

01;13;27;20 – 01;13;44;27

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So to say that I went through with flying colors would not be accurate in any way, shape or form. But I guess there was just a part of me that was just I just got to keep going. I just got to keep going. And my radiologist pretty much says the same thing. He goes, You are a unique individual.

01;13;45;10 – 01;14;11;23

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So because you you kept going. And he said, So I gave you 35. Okay, thanks for talking to me. So I know I was like, Oh my goodness. So yeah. So since then, you know, everything’s been good. I’m expecting it to be good. I’m not expecting another. When we get to that other five year point, there’s going to be an enterprise.

01;14;11;23 – 01;14;32;28

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I’m not expecting a ticket to be there in any way, shape or form, so I wasn’t up to that now. Yeah, not at all. That’s that’s. That’s a word we all need. Yes, I can do that with lots of things that are that are way more trivial than cancer, you know, five years. Was this going to be not helpful, Right.

01;14;32;28 – 01;14;58;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yeah. Really cool quote on that. Exactly. So it’s a leadership spot. It’s it’s don’t waste leadership capacity on the air. It seem like you have to plan for contingencies and there’s things you’re not going obviously. But like if you’re building a business or going through a health plan or doing, you know, raising children or whatever it is, yes, you can barely plan a month out, maybe a year loosely.

01;14;59;00 – 01;15;18;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

You have no business planning. Five years aside. My in five years, I’d like to generally be further north than I am currently. That’s it. We’ll see how we get there. You know, I’m not going to argue details about five years from now. I know the entire universe has changed at the time, so it’s like, you know, the same thing.

01;15;18;07 – 01;15;37;08

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It’s like, well, I’m going to worry about today that I’m going to have a news free birthday. Thank you. All right. We’ll take it. You’re right here. Just day by day, minute by minute. Absolutely. My story. Yes. I had two questions that come back to the beginning of this. Yeah. The first is, where was the possible resignation in office?

01;15;38;00 – 01;16;05;10

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Because they realized that you’re you’re doing the job that currently doing. Right. We started by talking about how like, it was difficult. Oh, interesting. And that kind of well, you know, you’re you’re kind of an anxiety, but. Yeah, well, yeah. Where where is that in the timeline? So interestingly enough, it was 2017 was the year before I had cancer was when I was like, I am not the person for this job.

01;16;06;05 – 01;16;29;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It was the year before and then a year later it was like boom, what a resume builder. Right? Okay. That doesn’t quit in failure once. Yeah. Let’s test this. Thank you for asking that question, but that’s a good question. Yeah, but see, you had no idea the, you know, that the job was hard enough to go through that weekend of anguish and then.

01;16;29;19 – 01;16;57;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Right. Yeah. And then the second is, what does this do for your husband and your daughters and you as a family going through all that one? I think it definitely brought us really close together. We’re very, very close. There’s a word that I’ve used ever since they were little. I call her ohana. I know if you’ve ever seen Lilo instead of the exact word family, it means family.

01;16;57;23 – 01;17;37;15

Jon, Aaron & Deb

No one gets left behind and no one is forgotten. And so Ohana is just an incredibly powerful word that basically encompasses what our family is. We are very, very close. What did that do? What do you think that to your daughters now as they grow up, the world makes them some challenges? Right. You know what? I think I look at them and and I am just I’m not only am I proud, I’m just amazed at the things that they do and the things that they are stepping into and the adventures that they are wanting to accomplish.

01;17;38;04 – 01;17;58;08

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And one of the things that I keep looking at them, they’re like, you know what? What do you what do you think of? I’m like, I Think you should do it? I think yes, absolutely. Which is really kind of cool. I also look at cancer because one of the questions I think you asked beginning was, you know, did it change?

01;17;58;11 – 01;18;21;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Did you transform I mean, to make you to be the person that you are now? Absolutely. I would never ever wish cancer on my worst enemy. It just wasn’t because it’s brutal and it’s difficult, hard. But I wouldn’t change my experience in the world because it really, truly has caused me to be the person that I am now.

01;18;21;16 – 01;18;44;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Before cancer, I would say I was definitely a person who I lived by the rules. The rules were my friends because they kept me safe, because there was a lot of fear in my life. And cancer brought about a circumstance and an atmosphere in which I had to deal with it. I had to deal with fear and not just fear.

01;18;44;06 – 01;19;10;15

Jon, Aaron & Deb

I had to deal with death staring me in the face every single day. And what was I going to do with that Wasn’t to be afraid of it or was I going to keep stepping forward? Was I going to keep going? No, not today. Not today. So my my last ten years of just dealing with all of that and all the things that, you know, we just talked about and shared, my girls and my hubby, they were along the ride with me.

01;19;10;24 – 01;19;39;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

They definitely impacted their life. I look at all of them and they’ve all stepped out into new ventures and I’m always like, Yeah, do it. Absolutely go for it. Because this is a time of life that you have. My daughter Grace is very to the military man. He’s in the Air Force. They’re stationed in Japan and she’s like, Mom, we’re going to be living in Japan.

01;19;39;04 – 01;20;06;29

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And he’s deployed right now. So she’s by herself. She’s actually home currently for a brief day. And then she’s headed back. And I just look at her and I’m like, I’m so proud of you because I know how hard it is for you to be alone because you are such a people person. That’s for you to go. I’m going to live in Japan around no family at all whatsoever is huge.

01;20;06;29 – 01;20;33;22

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I just look at her and go, Wow, I am so proud of you and the things that you are learning in the process of this very, very difficult time is going to be excellent, full. And you’re just it’s going to come out in ways that you’re just going to, like, shine. You see difficulty differently. Oh, absolutely. I like my and I think there’s going to be a side in the mother and you going to protect your own.

01;20;33;22 – 01;20;57;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This is a good thing. What’s happening for you? Because of my experience, I know. Has to be difficult, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. My other daughter, Olivia, she she’s had her sophomore year in college. She had to have a surgery. And it was it was pretty intense. And it’s cute because they all look at me and they’re like, mom.

01;20;57;16 – 01;21;19;21

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I’m like, You’re going to make it. You’re going to get through this. It’s going to be fine. They said, So let’s just do this just today. So they they’re cute because they always look at me go, Oh my goodness. My mom, she’s just like warrior woman. Like, she’s like, You just take it on. And I love that because I think inside I’m like, I love it.

01;21;19;21 – 01;21;43;09

Jon, Aaron & Deb

That’s what you see kind of sometimes inside I’m like, It is what is happening? What is going. And I had my own freak out moments inside and but then there’s a pause and you’re like, okay, but what do I believe in? One is true. Yeah, one’s true. And that’s one of the things I keep saying to my girls, what is true and what do you believe?

01;21;43;21 – 01;22;07;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And Olivia’s hopefully going to be going to Scotland for a year and doing stuff there. She went to Oxford and she’s like mom, because usually they’re like, Mom, I want you to come with me to Oxford to go, I will go with you to offer and like, you know, settle you in and yeah, first semester at school, all my friends are there.

01;22;07;20 – 01;22;28;02

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And it was really cute because that was months before she left. She was like, Mom, I think I need to do this by myself. And I went, Are you sure? She’s like, And I’m like, Awesome is a I dream. I think you do. I think it’s an adventure you need to do. And you know, the night before she left that we took her to the airport to head to Oxford.

01;22;28;21 – 01;22;48;16

Jon, Aaron & Deb

She’s like tapping. She’s in my room. It’s like 2 a.m., okay. And she’s like, Man, what were you thinking? And saying yes to be going, okay, so why are you not coming with me? And I’m like, okay, I get it. I go, You’re going to be okay. It’s going to be all right. I said, You got this. You got this.

01;22;48;25 – 01;23;19;22

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And the cool thing is, I wish she was here because to hear her tells Syrian-American, going to tell you all of it, her plane ride, it’s like a 12 hour flight. So we went on her plane ride from when she left L.A.X. to when she in London. The transformation that happened to her was phenomenal. She journaled just how being a seed and there’s this dying that has to happen before growth breaks through the ground and the lose.

01;23;19;25 – 01;23;44;26

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And I I’m like that would have never happened if I went with you. It would have never happened. So I look, you’re right. I look at difficulties or hard things and go, yeah, well, you’re like, Yes, absolutely. Do it because you don’t know what that is going to bring forth in your own life. But it is going to be good.

01;23;45;13 – 01;24;06;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It is going to be good. It’s interesting because you do not try to bubble wrap it. All right. You see the fruit that can come from adversity, the strengthening before for it. And that’s really cool. Yeah, it’s really cool because look at your kids and how they’re living now. And you’re like, No, I’m not going to go with you.

01;24;06;29 – 01;24;24;19

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Right? You need to go through this. And I can see it’s not going to kill you. So I’m sure you right? So I’m not going to protect you from it and it’s going to be a benefit to you. And then you just the flight and the change already starts to happen. You know, and yet they’re already fine. Literally, they’re all gone.

01;24;24;29 – 01;24;47;15

Jon, Aaron & Deb

So there’s no going back about something unsatisfying. Such a great idea when I’m alone by myself and figure it out and I never get home. But it’s interesting because throughout our entire conversation, as I listen to something as I go, there’s this thread there, there’s this theme of what is great today will cause you tomorrow, you know, like the medicine that was in your life, right?

01;24;47;17 – 01;25;12;06

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Gave you around three, right? You know, choosing, you know, being invested mother for 25 years, like in that high output period of life. Fantastic. Choosing to walk away from it because it was great. It doesn’t mean gonna be great tomorrow, right? You know, and it’s the same with, like walking with your children in all these different areas. We had four or five points to the conversation where it’s turned from like, this is so good.

01;25;12;06 – 01;25;30;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And then it had to stop because it was going to destroy everything. And it’s like, wow, like it takes a lot to wine. Recognize that in the moment too, to find the courage to let go of the things that you don’t want to let go of so that they can get and thrive and at least have the chance to actually, you know.

01;25;30;13 – 01;26;01;22

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Yes. Yeah. There’s things that are valuable and it’s like thankful for them. But at some point you may have to say goodbye to me, you know, and, and start another chapter, right, for for new health and a new new canvas. Obviously Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And thank you so much for coming. Oh, my gosh. There’s a lot of. Yeah, that Was encouraging like a terrible encouragement.

01;26;01;22 – 01;26;27;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

Like I but but at the same time I, I feel personally that when when we walk through these things are there’s so many combative voices right there to hear your story and you know it’s not that complex but it’s very hard like we don’t there’s not that but it is it is finding your own voice. And I love what you said.

01;26;27;05 – 01;26;49;04

Jon, Aaron & Deb

What do I believe? What is But but out of that belief. Is that true? Yes. And I think that the correct. Right. Right. And then getting out and digging your feet and keep going, right? You’re right. Yes. Yeah. The choices you made were simple. You know. It was. Yes. No, don’t quit, not go. Continue forward. Don’t accept that.

01;26;49;04 – 01;27;09;08

Jon, Aaron & Deb

This is my story. Do it. Right. Right. And think what happens is in the freak out, people want to like myself every like myself included. I want to make that choice more complex. It’s hard, right? Therefore, it must be complex. It’s not an easy choice. It’s not simple and maybe, maybe easy for you, but it’s not simple. But that’s a lie.

01;27;09;09 – 01;27;36;17

Jon, Aaron & Deb

It is simple simplicity does not negate sincerity and write something incredibly severe. It’s simple. And one of the things that I took away from listening to throughout this is you learned how to cut through the severity to get to the simple choice and then to make that choice simply and then deal with the severity as you need to resting and the choice continue forward.

01;27;37;01 – 01;28;01;07

Jon, Aaron & Deb

And there’s something called tragic. When everything that hung around you, you’re drowning in the severity, the choices. As simple as I will take another step. Yes. So whatever you have to do to say rest in that I will take that step and then deal with this very as it comes time to. Thanks for showing us the bass. Yeah, my pleasure.

01;28;01;12 – 01;28;12;12

Jon, Aaron & Deb

My pleasure. I love what you guys are doing. This is exciting and life giving and that’s what I love because life is hard, but there’s still more life.